Kocide instead of Phyton?

[richgarrison]

Anybody using Kocide in their maintenance programs instead of phyton?

Just wondering if anyone can wax rhapsodic about their practical experience with both, or just with Kocide?

 

[Ray]

I would never use a pesticide as part of routine maintenance. Only as a curative. If used when unneeded, they may physiologically weaken plants, not to mention inadvertently help breed resistant "super pests".

Phyton contains copper sulfate pentahydrate
Kocide contains copper hydroxide
The Southern Ag product is copper diammonium diacetate

Apparently copper is copper, but do keep in mind that copper can also be used as a herbicide.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Ray, is phyton 27 considered systemic?

 

[Ray]

Ray, is phyton 27 considered systemic?

Yes, the copper is absorbed and spread throughout the plant. From the Phytoncorp website:

" Phyton 27 is a broad-spectrum, systemic bactericide + fungicide that has proven effective against many pathogens, including Botrytis (gray mold), bacterial leaf spot, powdery mildew, and more. Its patented formula enables its active ingredient to be absorbed into the plant’s vascular tissue where it can move up, down and across the plant, killing pathogens that have attacked the internal plant tissues. With a residual of up to 21 days..."

 

[Ray]

If I may sidetrack this a bit. I have always heard warnings that copper compounds should not be used on dendrobiums, plants with thin leaves, or blooming plants. Does anyone know of real-life examples of copper toxicity in orchids? I am aware of its use to kill weeds and algae in ponds, where copper sulfate is mixed with fertilizer and spread around, but not being a grower of dendrobiums, nor a frequent user of copper on my collection (once or twice in over 45 years), I can't authoritatively says any of it is true or false.

 

[Ozpaph]

I use copper occassionally. I have kept it off dendrobes as per the 'heresay'. I did spray a renanthera seedling and it died but who knows. It doesnt harm paphs at recommended concentrations. You should note that 'copper' isnt copper. Apparently particle size is very important for effectiveness. The finer the better.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

I have used phyton 27 on all plants in my collections including the cuthsbertsoniis, kingianum hybrids, dendrobium species with no issues. I do use a lower dose and wash blooms after (sometimes they damage softer cattleya blooms).

I have not tried other brands so I can't speak for them.

 

[Stone]

I read an interesting article in an AU orchid mag where a chemist did experiments on reducing the toxicity of copper sprays by mixing it with lime. If I remember correctly ,he also did trial with dendrobium and found no toxicity problems when used this way. He advised not to let it drip onto the p/mix particularly if it was acidic. He said it was still one of the most potent anti-fungals to be had. I now mix copper (oxychloride in this case) with calcium hydroxide into a paste before diluting then use that for spraying.

 

[Ray]

I use copper occassionally. I have kept it off dendrobes as per the 'heresay'. I did spray a renanthera seedling and it died but who knows. It doesnt harm paphs at recommended concentrations. You should note that 'copper' isnt copper. Apparently particle size is very important for effectiveness. The finer the better.

Particle size? These are applied as solutions.

 

[werner.freitag]

I studied the Phyton 27 a little. Its about 21% Copper Sulphate x 5 H2O ( the normal form , blue cristals ) and about 1% Tannic Acid .
The Tannic Acid forms a complex with the Copper Sulphate and makes the solution more stable.
Ray is ofcause right , its a solution.

 

[werner.freitag]

I have used phyton 27 on all plants in my collections including the cuthsbertsoniis, kingianum hybrids, dendrobium species with no issues. I do use a lower dose and wash blooms after (sometimes they damage softer cattleya blooms).

I have not tried other brands so I can't speak for them.

Leslie , what amount/ concentration do you use ?
Do you use the PHYTON 27 AG , there is a PHYTON 27 NEW DIMENSION in google with lower Copper content.

 

[werner.freitag]

I read an interesting article in an AU orchid mag where a chemist did experiments on reducing the toxicity of copper sprays by mixing it with lime. If I remember correctly ,he also did trial with dendrobium and found no toxicity problems when used this way. He advised not to let it drip onto the p/mix particularly if it was acidic. He said it was still one of the most potent anti-fungals to be had. I now mix copper (oxychloride in this case) with calcium hydroxide into a paste before diluting then use that for spraying.

In former times a mix of Calcium Hydroxide and Copper Sulphate was used as fungicide for growing grapes, called BORDEAUX MIX.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Leslie , what amount/ concentration do you use ?
Do you use the PHYTON 27 AG , there is a PHYTON 27 NEW DIMENSION in google with lower Copper content.

I use the original formula 21.36% copper sulphate pentahydrate.

 

[Ozpaph]

Particle size? These are applied as solutions.

Yes. Copper sprays are suspended particles in solution. Particle size is important. http://www.scaffolds.entomology.cornell.edu/2012/SCAFFOLDS 3-12-12.pdf
I read another article but cant find it now; same consclusions.

 

[Ozpaph]

and this - https://cdn.nufarm.com/wp-content/u...11014750/NufarmCopperChamps_iPad_REV10.18.pdf

 

[Ozpaph]

this is it - http://mvcitrus.org.au/mvcb/wp-cont...pper-sprays-to-control-diseases-in-citrus.pdf

 

[werner.freitag]

some are , some are not ! Copper SulphatexH2O is a real solution in an aqueos medium, some other Copper compouds are just suspended.
Sorry, I am a chemist .

Yes. Copper sprays are suspended particles in solution. Particle size is important. http://www.scaffolds.entomology.cornell.edu/2012/SCAFFOLDS 3-12-12.pdf
I read another article but cant find it now; same consclusions.

 

[werner.freitag]

I use the original formula 21.36% copper sulphate pentahydrate.

thank , you . I will try to copy this formulation, see , if it works.

But how much per liter or gallon ???

 

[DrLeslieEe]

1/4 teaspoon per gallon
Shake and mix well
Apply in mornings
Wash off blooms with light water mist
And also test on few dendrobiums first in case dose too high

 

[werner.freitag]

thank you ,Leslie

its about 1ml per liter,
I am waiting for the Tannic Acid, then make a try, will see.
Phyton is not available here, other copper products are, but should not be as effective ( suspension , no solution )