New species?

[SlipperKing]

Anyone heard anything on these?
6. Zhong-Jian Liu, Olaf Gruss, Li-Jun Chen. Paphiopedilum cornuatum und Paphiopedilum × nitens, eine neue Art und eine neue Naturhybride aus Yunnan, China. Die Orchidee. 2011, 62 (4): 275 ~ 279.

5. Zhong-Jian Liu, Olaf Gruss, Li-Jun Chen. Paphiopedilum stenolomum ZJ LIU, O. GRUSS & LJ CHEN, spec. Nov. Und Paphiopedilum × wuliangshanicum ZJ LIU, O. GRUSS & LJ CHEN, hybr, nov., eine neue Art und eine neue Naturhybride der Gattung Paphiopedilum aus Yunnan, China. Die Orchidee. 2011, 62 (3): 189 ~ 192.

Whatcha think of this gratrixianum/villosum?

This image was posted by my friend Yijia Wang on Facebook
and here is some of the discussion about the above flower


Frank Cervera
(Yesterday )

Paphiopedilum gratrixianum v. cangyuanense. A valid description :http://sinicaorchid.gd168.net/PaperView.Asp?Id=58

What is the difference between this variety and villosum, baxalii, annamense, affine?

Paphiopedilum gratrixianum v cangyuanense. Penjelasan valid: http://sinicaorchid.gd168.net/PaperView.Asp?Id=58
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Olaf Gruß my knowledge about the complex villosum - gratrixianum - affine - boxallii and the intergrades between is not so good that I could decide. Also there is so great variability in this complex in the single species that I would not like to write the label for your plant. Perhaps Guido will do it?
14 hours ago · Like · 2

Guido Jozef Braem Species are variable ... it is time that we acknowledge that and stop describing each variant as a separate taxon, but I guess this will never happen. Alternatively, we should admit trat subspecific differentiation is simply arbitrary. And that is why I started off the "complexes".
13 hours ago · Like · 5

Canh Chu Xuan We also have some varieties from different location in Vietnam. For local name we called them by the name of the location of that species occurs but for scientific name we call all villosum.
13 hours ago · Edited · Like · 4

Guido Jozef Braem that is an acceptable solution
12 hours ago · Like · 3

TropicalExotique Orchids What if there are two or three varieties occur within the same location? Only, what if...
12 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2

Guido Jozef Braem Call them Guangdong # 1 and Guangdong # 2 (for example)
12 hours ago · Like · 3

 

[The Orchid Boy]

Never seen a gratrixianum/villosum like that. Interesting...

 

[NYEric]

No comment.

 

[Faan]

Does not matter what it is called in the end, it remains a pretty flower.

 

[paphioboy]

I thought nitens (or x nitens) is a hybrid of insigne and villosum. There are several pics of specimen plants on the net.

 

[quietaustralian]

A few months ago I was reading through some of the papers relating to Paphs at the Acta Botanica Yunnanicam website. I was amazed at how many "new" Paph varieties or forms there were. It seems that some of these botanists really enjoy writing papers based on the smallest difference.

I don't know why Paph affine is mentioned, I thought that discussion had been put to bed. Paph affine was clearly a hybrid, a cross between villosum/gratrixianum? and appletonianum.

 

[SlipperKing]

I probably should of posted this in the Taxonomy section. What I found interesting as well, was the large numbers of reseach papers and such when I opened the link within the discussion Frank Cervera posted. Quite a number of studies going on in China and elsewhere of orchids within their own borders.
I wasn't able to acturally view any of them...too bad.

 

[atlantis]

Rick: thank you for sharing this news with us.

Two days ago I was talking about this plants with a friend of mine.

IMHO, these are nothing but varieties of P. villosum.

It´s well known that P. villosum is very viariable in colour and pattern (not in shape except, maybe, var. boxallii) so, for me, both ("P. cornuatum" and "P. stenolobum") are plants waiting for their variety name as P. villosum var. annamense was in the past.

Moreover, the flower you´ve posted is very different from the P. cornuatum or the P. stenolobum you can see in Orchid Digest, vol. 76-4 : 187 (Oct. Nov. Dec. 2012) and Orchid Digest, vol. 76-4 : 205 (Oct. Nov. Dec. 2012).
Why these different flowers (your picture and the plant shown in Orchid Digest) are considered the same species instead of different taxa given the obvious diferences between them? It´s a craze

That´s MY OPINION and I can only talk about what I see in pictures. Maybe I´m totally wrong, of course!

I know it´s only a picture but I think it resumes quite well what we´re talking about P. villosum.

 

[Rick]

Some dimensions would be nice.

Differences in dorsal sepal color really wouldn't have much basis for species status for a plant that has such a huge range.

The diameter of the hole exiting the backside of the pouch (past the pollinia and stigma) is what really weeds out the laundry list of fly species that can pollinate this beauty. (That and time of year for blooming).

 

[SlipperKing]

For the flower I posted above; below Frank Cervera's name he describes this flower as Paphiopedilum gratrixianum v. cangyuanense. As for the two plants I posted in the articles above the picture, I found those within the link Mr. Cervera listed with his flower. I have no idea what they look like. Does anyone have PICs they can post of "P. cornuatum" and "P. stenolobum"?

The plant I ordered from Mr. Perner is Paph villosum var. boxallii f. atratum. Perner's picture and this flower look very similar.

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

For anyone on Facebook, Olaf's page has a photo of this plant (cangyunense) that looks completely different, and clearly looks much more like gratrixianum. This picture looks like villosum.

 

[atlantis]

Does anyone have PICs they can post of "P. cornuatum" and "P. stenolobum"?

The only two PICs I have from these "new species" are from Orchid Digest (Bibliography some posts before in this same thread)

 

[goldenrose]

Looks like a variety of villosum to me too!

 

[SlipperFan]

lumpers and splitters....

 

[Ozpaph]

Rick: thank you for sharing this news with us.

Two days ago I was talking about this plants with a friend of mine.

IMHO, these are nothing but varieties of P. villosum.

It´s well known that P. villosum is very viariable in colour and pattern (not in shape except, maybe, var. boxallii) so, for me, both ("P. cornuatum" and "P. stenolobum") are plants waiting for their variety name as P. villosum var. annamense was in the past.

Moreover, the flower you´ve posted is very different from the P. cornuatum or the P. stenolobum you can see in Orchid Digest, vol. 76-4 : 187 (Oct. Nov. Dec. 2012) and Orchid Digest, vol. 76-4 : 205 (Oct. Nov. Dec. 2012).
Why these different flowers (your picture and the plant shown in Orchid Digest) are considered the same species instead of different taxa given the obvious diferences between them? It´s a craze

That´s MY OPINION and I can only talk about what I see in pictures. Maybe I´m totally wrong, of course!

I know it´s only a picture but I think it resumes quite well what we´re talking about P. villosum.

View attachment 7632

That Lindenia picture is most instructive on the specie variation

 

[FrankRC]

I had no idea this photo would cause so much discussion... But discussion is good!

Rick, Yijia Wang did not post this photo on Facebook, I did. I did tag him in the picture. It is a picture of one of my villosums. The plant originally came to me as the variety described in the picture (Paphiopedilum gratrixianum v. cangyuanense), which it is clearly not. Paphiopedilum gratrixianum v. cangyuanense has gratrixianum type purple spots on the petals and a typical gratrixianum type dorsal sepal (white background with some purple and purple spots). It was one of a group of plants that all originated from around the same giant boulder in southern China. One of those plants was described as, and is, Paphiopedilum gratrixianum v. cangyuanense. These plants originating from the same micro habitat only adds to the need to rework and reclassify the villosum "complex" (plants coming from singular habitats on the Bolevan plateau in Laos are showing characteristics of villosum, annamense, affine, and gratrixianum on the same flower).

After much discussion between Olaf, Guido and myself (I involved Olaf as he assisted on Liu's description) the plant pictured is part of the villosum complex and the tag will reflect "Paphiopedilum villosum". I follow Guido's treatment here as he is correct in that to reduce every variation within a species concept known for its variability to a new taxon is not neccesary.

The flower is quite large for the species and has been selfed. Seedlings will be available soon! Well, that's "soon" in orchid time...

Frank

 

[cnycharles]

if the one plant was found in a colony around one big boulder, and then one plant was different than all the rest, then would this really be grounds for someone trying to give it a different varietal name? it would seem that there would really need to be a numbered population of something, before someone would go out and try to give something a differentiation from everything else (but that's just me). apologies if i'm misunderstanding

 

[FrankRC]

if the one plant was found in a colony around one big boulder, and then one plant was different than all the rest, then would this really be grounds for someone trying to give it a different varietal name? it would seem that there would really need to be a numbered population of something, before someone would go out and try to give something a differentiation from everything else (but that's just me). apologies if i'm misunderstanding

You're not missing anything. This is, in sum and substance, what led to the description of gratrixianum v. cangyuanense. This is why I follow Dr. Bream on this, who said in regards to my Facebook post:

"Species are variable ... it is time that we acknowledge that and stop describing each variant as a separate taxon, but I guess this will never happen. Alternatively, we should admit trat (sic) subspecific differentiation is simply arbitrary. And that is why I started off the "complexes"."

 

[GuRu]

You're not missing anything. This is, in sum and substance, what led to the description of gratrixianum v. cangyuanense. This is why I follow Dr. Bream on this, who said in regards to my Facebook post:

"Species are variable ... it is time that we acknowledge that and stop describing each variant as a separate taxon, but I guess this will never happen. Alternatively, we should admit trat (sic) subspecific differentiation is simply arbitrary. And that is why I started off the "complexes"."

I second this !
But obviously sometimes the vanity of human beings (taxonomists) is stronger than their sanity.

 

[atlantis]

I second this !
But obviously sometimes the vanity of human beings (taxonomists) is stronger than their sanity.

Amen!!