Orchids Mag
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I'd like to know about the Paph. Chiu Hua Dancer: who is Springwater orchids and Thanh Nguyen? AOS judging only allows for awarding of this hybrid if the plants originated from Glen Decker, and will not award controversial species abroad. I had this plant, with paperwork from Glen, awarded and the award subsequently nullified.
Anyone know how to file a grievance? My plant is better anyway...
Anyone know how to file a grievance? My plant is better anyway...
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The same thing happened to a friend who got an AM.
We thought the same about the Rex Van-Delden! That plant would have been screened by the "hanging" judges we have in Boylston!
Thanh is a well-known orchid/paph seller in Florida, and a very nice person to deal with. Not sure about the award in question but I can say nice things about Thanh and his plants.
all I'm concerned about is the provenance of that plant. I couldn't find any info on the exhibiters, but I admit I'm not the best at internet researching. I just want to know whether he had the paperwork!
Scott Ware
Well-Known Member
I can't offer any insight on the Paph. Memoria Rex Van-Delden (it may need a more creative explanation than I could come up with), but the photo of the Phalaenopsis John Naugle has been stretched so far out of aspect ratio it is absolutely unrecognizable. A real shame - I saw this flower in person and it is the most spectacular huge, ROUND white phalaenopsis of the heaviest substance one could imagine - nothing like the freakish stretched out pathetic mess depicted in the magazine photo.
I missed that one at first.Who let that photo slip through the cracks during editing?
mormodes
Well-Known Member
This (usa-illegal plants getting AOS awards in international shows) is on the agenda at Wichita. Act fast, Wichita is coming up at the end of this month. And no. I don't know how to spell Whichita. Wichita. Wixita.*G*
Sadly, I have no doubt that foreign interest will win. "American" Orchid Society may be a misnomer...
if they are judging plants in another country, then they should judge plants that are legal to have in that country. very easy to determine, anything else is ........
However, that puts US growers at a distinct disadvantage! Lets take hangianum for example. If that species gets a lot of awards in other countries while it is still illegal here, then it will be awarded out. Once it becomes legal here, it will become very difficult, if not impossible, for US growers to get parallel awards. Also, it is rewarding the pecuniary interest for foreign growers, while punishing US growers for their "accident" of nationality.
Personally, I don't think AOS should be in the habit of playing CITES politics or in the habit of doing USFWS job for them. Stick to judging all orchids and let others enforce the laws and treaties. AOS isn't an enforcement agency...
I have never seen a good Paph Memoria Rex Van Delden... It is always a poor version of Dollgoldi indeed...
As for the gigantifolium, the history is really weird about those 'legal' and those 'illegal' plants. The original paperwork came from Indonesia as flasks. I did have some of those flasks ( genuine, nevertheless), and some went to Au Yong. He grew the plants better than me in 2001, as within a year, he was able to export gigantifolium with CITES, multigrowth plants. I bought some ( though I have been cheated and some plants were swapped for runts, as usual with Au Yong, but anyway).
The legal plants from Glen Decker came from Au Yong, not directly ( some indeed came through me, through Germany...). Same for the Taiwanese ones. The illegal plants from Sam Tsui came through Au Yong, through Hawaii. In fact, the importer in Hawaii made a CITES for sanderianum, rothschildianum, stonei and gigantifolium. When he got caught with some of the sanderianum ( indeed freshly collected), he made a plea bargain, and accepted to cancel the import. As a result it canceled as well the CITES, including those gigantifolium plants. Suddenly, the plants from Sam Tsui became illegal.
But the funny part is that, anyway, they all had the same exporter, but some lucky ones still have valid CITES, the unlucky had their CITES canceled...
There are more imports in the USA of gigantifolium that are still legal than the only plants from Glen Decker.
We have, according to the CITES Trade Database:
2001 Malaysia to the USA, canceled permit
2006 Germany to the USA from France, 40 plants ( Glenn Decker stock)
2007 Taiwan to the USA ( accepted, import permit emitted and import completed) 5 plants. Don't know where... and the US emitted a reexport permit of 3 plants to Canada. All legal then...
2008 Taiwan to the USA one gigantifolium again...
2009 People's Republic of China to Canada, 2 plants ( which confirms that Holger Perner is not the only one to export legally from China...)
2009 Canada to the USA, 5 plants
2009 Taiwan to the USA, 5 plants.
It appears very clearly that, if the AOS Awards commitee accepts only Glenn Decker plants as legal, they are plain wrong, and sponsoring directly one trader against the others... There are more nurseries and more people who have legit gigantifolium.
In the CITES Trade Database, I copied only the plants whose import has been accepted by the USFWS as legit, completed, and not canceled...
Thanks Roth. As always you information is interesting and thorough!
As for sponsoring Glen, over others. It was explained to me that AOS judges were recognizing his Chiu Hua Dancers as legit because Roddy Gabel at USFWS had recognized them as the only legal import of that hybrid. As forgigantifolium I don't know that status. Also, the information regarding that hybrid came to me as of November. As of January's CAIOS show, there was one illegal Chiu Hua Dancer exhibited there, but not judged.
Perhaps the status of Chiu Hua Dancer has changed? Anyone know?
As for sponsoring Glen, over others. It was explained to me that AOS judges were recognizing his Chiu Hua Dancers as legit because Roddy Gabel at USFWS had recognized them as the only legal import of that hybrid. As for
gigantifolium I don't know that status. Also, the information regarding that hybrid came to me as of November. As of January's CAIOS show, there was one illegal Chiu Hua Dancer exhibited there, but not judged.Perhaps the status of Chiu Hua Dancer has changed? Anyone know?
Well, I do not believe that so much... As long as they recognize gigantifolium from many countries to be legal, and allow the import to the USA, they have to accept its hybrids from those same countries, as well as US made hybrids.
So far for paphiopedilum hybrids, they can be traded as paphiopedilum hybrids, no need to mention the parentage according to the CITES regulations. Now maybe Glenn Decker is the only one to have a CITES writtent 'Chiu Hua Dancer' on it, but it has technically no more value than 'hybrids', and surely less than a legit gigantifolium CITES as several others traders in the USA have...
Correct. You can import hybrids no problem.
Correct. You can import hybrids no problem.
Excuse me if I'm wrong, but if the hybrid is created by using a plant from the "no-no" list, then don't the CITES and LACEY Act rules apply to that hybrid as if it was gigantifolium, ie requiring proper documentation for the source material? Otherwise, why haven't we had legal hangianum hybrids in the US for the past several years?
Roth: Like I said, I was only re-stating what I had been told, which was backed up by other growers. I didn't ask USFWS.
I realize I'm simplifying this response. I simply don't have time to write more detail at the moment, but I think everyone reading should be able to get the gist of what I'm trying to say.
When you get plants inspected to export from outside and import, if the vendor documents and your paperwork says, "paphiopedilum hybrids", that usually gets CITES inspection approval. At least in my experience.
That's another issue as well, in the Netherlands they made a lot of complex x helenae and complex x coccineum pot plants, that are legit under the tag 'Paphiopedilum hybrid. Same for Ho Chi Minh, used as pot plant...
Under the Lacey act, yes, but so far there has been legit import to the US, USFWS approved, of ALL the known species of Paphiopedilum, including hangianum, etc... under their legit name, well before Holger Perner or Glenn Decker did so... This includes even ooii, anitum, gigantifolium...
Now, as I said previously, many growers have legit gigantifolium, but they will not make invoices to you at any cost. One invoice of a legit gigantifolium, for one plant, can launder thousands of wild gigantifolium, seed grown from illegal parents, hybrids... I made that mistake years ago too, selling gigantifolium with invoice and CITES, thanks to me they are legal around the world, and only thanks to me, no one else...
I belive that the three people who imported ooii with a CITES ( one well known paph grower too...), or hangianum, some years ago in the USA, will NEVER issue any invoice. You pay in cash, get the plant, but they could not charge anyone the proper price for legalizing millions of plants by making an invoice... ( I do indeed have a CITES for ooii, but I will never release any plants of it with a copy of the CITES indeed...)
Under the Lacey act, yes, but so far there has been legit import to the US, USFWS approved, of ALL the known species of Paphiopedilum, including hangianum, etc... under their legit name, well before Holger Perner or Glenn Decker did so... This includes even ooii, anitum, gigantifolium...
Now, as I said previously, many growers have legit gigantifolium, but they will not make invoices to you at any cost. One invoice of a legit gigantifolium, for one plant, can launder thousands of wild gigantifolium, seed grown from illegal parents, hybrids... I made that mistake years ago too, selling gigantifolium with invoice and CITES, thanks to me they are legal around the world, and only thanks to me, no one else...
I belive that the three people who imported ooii with a CITES ( one well known paph grower too...), or hangianum, some years ago in the USA, will NEVER issue any invoice. You pay in cash, get the plant, but they could not charge anyone the proper price for legalizing millions of plants by making an invoice... ( I do indeed have a CITES for ooii, but I will never release any plants of it with a copy of the CITES indeed...)
You can get any paph in this country, you just have to know where/who. CITES enforcement in the USA is crippling the ability of vendors to sell crosses. A simpler annual comparison of which countries are registering hybrids will show this. Forget awards, think sales.
