Paphiopedilum hangianum

[parvi_17]

What a gorgeous plant, even if it isn't hangianum!

 

[paworsport]

Delophyllum x hangianum ? Or (delenatii x cochlo ) x hangianum ? The staminode is close to this type of hybrids and the double flower could be explained , the hairy petals too

 

[Drorchid]

Oh I had not seen this thread yet!

#1 That is one amazing flower!!! :drool::drool:

#2 It definately is NOT a pure hangianum and I have to agree with John M's first idea. I think it is a hangianum crossed onto a primary. One of the parents of the primary parent is definately malipoense. I don't think the primary is a pure parvi (like Fanaticum) because the petals would be much rounder in that case. I don't think it is Jade Dragon either, because Jade Dragon is pretty much sterile and does not breed, and if it was Jade Dragon, the petals would be more reflexed (like a fairrieanum). I am leaning the most towards Harold Koopowitz (malipoense x rothschildianum) as the other parent. I don't think it is a straght Paph. Alexej (hangianum x roth) because the petals are too wide, and the staminode has more of a "parvi" look.

Robert

 

[John Boy]

Hi Robert,
I find it totally impressive how you, or the others come to any possible rothschildianum involvement because I so can’t see that. I assume we are talking about a roth. Primary Hybrid, or maybe a Parvi-Primary x roth hybrid…?! That again means that rothschildianum would only be 3 to 4 stages away form this flower, and I just can’t make out anything rothschildianum here….
For me the only possible answer is something like a pure Parvi primary hybrid like Fanaticum x hanginaum. Anything rothschildianum would have done god-knows-what to the folwers’ shape and that never happened either…

Tata,
JB

PS: I hope you guys realise that this flower is being discussed sort of worldwide and in other Forums too, by now?
:drool::clap::clap:

 

[Drorchid]

I looked it up and Paph. Harold Koopowitz x hangianum has been registered as Paph. Chen Samn Challenger. I actually found a picture on-line: http://www.paph.idv.tw/tps1/910.JPG

To me that picture looks like a more beefy Harold Koopowitz, but I do see some hangianum in the staminodal shield so it is possible. But I agree it does not look like our mystery plant, so who knows it may be Fanaticum x hanginaum after all (That would be my 2nd Choice).

Robert

 

[Pete]

i dont think theres been enough breeding time elapsed to have used a roth 4 "stages" (generations) away... Robert is likely correct, a primary of some sort with hangi. whether it has roth or not who knows

 

[John M]

Hi Robert,
I find it totally impressive how you, or the others come to any possible rothschildianum involvement because I so can’t see that. I assume we are talking about a roth. Primary Hybrid, or maybe a Parvi-Primary x roth hybrid…?! That again means that rothschildianum would only be 3 to 4 stages away form this flower, and I just can’t make out anything rothschildianum here….
For me the only possible answer is something like a pure Parvi primary hybrid like Fanaticum x hanginaum. Anything rothschildianum would have done god-knows-what to the folwers’ shape and that never happened either…

John Boy. I just don't see how you can be missing the roth. I see a lot of possible roth involvement. Presuming the parents involved were both very good quality clones, the perfect shape of the dorsal sepal is very roth-indicative. The slightly downswept slant to the petals is in the same plane as what we see on most roths. The multifloral characteristic supports a multifloral ancestry; ESPECIALLY since one of the parents (hangianum), is predominantly single flowered. But, most of all, the staminode is bang on intermediate between any roth/Parvi hybrid and hangianum. Have you really looked at what a Parvi does to a roth staminode sheild in the first generation (= primary hybrid)? Consider the shape and colour pattern of the staminode sheild on any Delrosi (roth x delenatii), or Dollgoldi (x armeniacum), or Howard Koopowitz (x malipoense), or Gloria Naugle (x micranthum). Then, compare it to a pure hangianum staminode sheild and the staminode sheild on Kavanaru's flower. I believe the basic flower shape comes from HK; but, it's been rounded and "beefed" up a good bit by the addition of hangianum genes. The netting markings in the petals are from the malipoense grand parent and the deep dark colour is from a very dark hangianum parent. It will not be from a roth because roth colour is almost always replaced by the other parent's colours in primary hybrids (Delrosi is pink; Dollgoldi is yellow, Woluwense is white, etc.).

Robert; IMO, that link shows a Harold Koopowitz. I see no hangianum in that at all. I found the same Taiwan website with that photo displayed and the staminode on that flower is virtually identical to the HK that they also posted.

 

[Pete]

it almost looks kind of similar to what youd expect out of like a (malipo x adductum/other multi) x hangi. GoldenRose posted this picture of a Hideki Okuyama but i dont think that crossed with a hangi would result in what were seeing. i saw some multis in taiwan that were things like lady isabel x godefroyae and leucochilum x anitum.. those things kind of also resemble what you would think would be a mate with hangi for this flower..

 

[Pete]

oops
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4857

 

[Damas]

What about Karl Ploberger = (bellatulum x hangianum) ?

Or Wossner Concohang

Or unregistred hangianum x S.Gratrix

Well, you get the idea : brachypetalum x hangianum ?

 

[John Boy]

No way. You'd be able to see that in the leafs and overall plant.
Nice pictures anyway.

 

[Kavanaru]

What about Karl Ploberger = (bellatulum x hangianum) ?

Or Wossner Concohang

Or unregistred hangianum x S.Gratrix

Well, you get the idea : brachypetalum x hangianum ?

Nope! I have Karl Ploberger, Wössner Concohang, Wössner Favorite and Chou-Yi Yuki, and have as well seen first hand other Brachyxhangianum hybrids. You can strognly see the influence of Brachy on the leave (color and general shape). The general shape of the flowers is also pretty different too (ok, I admit this can vary quite a lot)
I must admit I am quite lost with my plant... I agree that the other parent must by a primary hibrid and not a pure species, however this should be (most probably) a plant "easily" available in Europe (the plant is supposed to be of European origin.. but ok, it was also supposed to be pure hangianum :rollhappy: therefore my credibility on this nursery is as good as non-existent - add lack of response from them to it)

 

[Drorchid]

Robert; IMO, that link shows a Harold Koopowitz. I see no hangianum in that at all. I found the same Taiwan website with that photo displayed and the staminode on that flower is virtually identical to the HK that they also posted.

That is what I thought, OK, I am back to it being HK x hangianum. By the way it is definately not a Brachy x hangianum.

Robert

 

[Drorchid]

I found a picture of Paph. Harold Koopowitz x armeniacum on the web. This gives you an idea of what the flower looks like of HK x a parvi. comparing this to our Mistery plant I still do believe it could be HK x hangianum. The dark colors come from the hangianum parent. Also the roth in its backgound usually darkens the colors.

http://www.incharmorchids.com/galle...4&sessionid=ea29aa813a0a49e9bcbaccc0721b40f7#

Robert

 

[John M]

I found a picture of Paph. Harold Koopowitz x armeniacum on the web. This gives you an idea of what the flower looks like of HK x a parvi. comparing this to our Mistery plant I still do believe it could be HK x hangianum. The dark colors come from the hangianum parent. Also the roth in its backgound usually darkens the colors.

http://www.incharmorchids.com/galle...4&sessionid=ea29aa813a0a49e9bcbaccc0721b40f7#

Robert

Very interesting photo. HK x armeniacum is one worth getting! If you imagine that flower with a little bit fuller, rounder shape and with a very dark overlay of mahogany (both from a round, dark hangianum), then, you'd pretty much have a flower like Kavanaru's.

BTW Robert: You say that "....the roth in it's background usually darkens the colours". I've not heard of that. I'm sure that you have WAY more experience and knowledge than I do about how roth genes behave. Does the colour from roth come through in F2 generation hybrids even though it does not seem to come through in F1 generation hybrids? It is interesting that the roth colour genes might be "recaptured" or enhanced in a later gereration.

 

[Drorchid]

BTW Robert: You say that "....the roth in it's background usually darkens the colours". I've not heard of that. I'm sure that you have WAY more experience and knowledge than I do about how roth genes behave. Does the colour from roth come through in F2 generation hybrids even though it does not seem to come through in F1 generation hybrids? It is interesting that the roth colour genes might be "recaptured" or enhanced in a later gereration.

Yes, in general when you cross a roth onto another Paph (from a different group, say a parvi or a vini colored Maudiae) it will intensify the colors, and yes it will probably come through in the F2 generation.

Here is a vini x rothschildianum:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4149&highlight=nachtwacht
The colors turn out even darker compared to a straight vini, and almost look black.

vietnamense x rothschildianum (Wossner Vietnam Love):
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/society/ajos/flowerdata2/4351.html
(much darker compared to a vietnamense)

Even when crossed onto a yellow Paph. armeniancum, the yellows become richer and more saturated; Paph Dollgoldi (armeniancum x rothschildianum):
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/society/ajos/flowerdata2/4354.html

on that same site was a cool picture of Paph. Alexej (rothschilidianum x hangianum):
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/society/ajos/flowerdata2/4352.html
showing similar "chocolate" colors compared to our mystery plant. Add some "malipoense" genes to the mix and I think we will get Kavanaru's plant.

Robert

 

[John M]

Thanks for the explanation. So, it's not that the roth colour genes are totally cancelled out and have no influence; but, the roth genes have the effect of intensifying the colour of the other parent; no matter what it's colour. That makes sense when you think of the roth primaries that I mentioned. While they are all the colour of the "other" parent, the colours are much more intense than the "other" parent.

That Alexej is awesome! Thanks for posting that link. Although, it's hard to know 100% difinitively, I think that if Kavanaru's plant had been sold as HK x hangianum, nobody would've ever questioned it.

 

[John Boy]

Well, I think the question we should be asking is:
Where do I get one?
I don't really care too much what it is, but:

I want one!

Okay put it this way:
I do care what it is, but i don't mind!

 

[Kavanaru]

Yes, in general when you cross a roth onto another Paph (from a different group, say a parvi or a vini colored Maudiae) it will intensify the colors, and yes it will probably come through in the F2 generation.

interesting info, I was not aware of that and always thought it was just the roth primary shown were just the best ones... and therefore the colors were always so intense..

on that same site was a cool picture of Paph. Alexej (rothschilidianum x hangianum):
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/society/ajos/flowerdata2/4352.html
showing similar "chocolate" colors compared to our mystery plant. Add some "malipoense" genes to the mix and I think we will get Kavanaru's plant.

hhhmmm.... that's an interesting Paph Alexej... if I compare to the Alexejs I have seen, this is absolutely the best of the best...

Well, I think the question we should be asking is:
Where do I get one?
I don't really care too much what it is, but:

I want one!

Okay put it this way:
I do care what it is, but i don't mind!

hehe, I like your attitude

 

[NYEric]

Addicted!