Paphiopedilum hangianum

[John Boy]

look who's talkin'!oke:

 

[cnycharles]

interesting discussion! who says you have to pay money to be educated these days?

 

[NYEric]

look who's talkin'!oke:

Really!?

 

[Hera]

I've been away for a few days, now I am back and taking another look at the blooms. I keep going back to the shape of the pouch. Its defined somehow that I can't put into words. The hangianum has such a softened and pastel shaded pouch that is quite distinctive. This one reminds me of the shape of something with a shinier, shaplier pouch. My uneducated self(in orchids) says roth.

 

[Kavanaru]

One of the potential parents discussed at some point on this thread was Paph Fanaticum. The Hybrid Fanaticum x hangianum is Paph Alois Handlbauer... Here is a photo of this hybrid, side by side with a photo of m yplant...




quite different I would say...

 

[cnycharles]

I know nothing about staminodes, or which species has what shape and all that, but from the above two pics the two plants' staminodes definitely look different

 

[John Boy]

from what I see, that Alois Handlbauer almost looks like a simple hangianum x malipoense. Where's the micrathum gone off to?

 

[Kavanaru]

no idea... maybe to the Stami and deeper colors? If I recall it correctly from Shannan, this plant was displayed by Franz Glanz...

it seems that the malipoense staminodium is pretty dominant over hangianum in the primary hybrid (as per google search). This is the Shun-Fa Golden (hangianum x maliponese) I know in flowers:

 

[Hien]

I think your plant does have hangianum bloodline.
The differences in shape , color, & staminode that we see in the pictures may be the results of whether fanaticum or hangianum were used as the mother plant.
I would guess that yours has the fanaticum mother
& the one in the other picture with hangianum mother

 

[John Boy]

Yeah, very good point. Hien has a point there. Given the chance, I wouldn't try hangianum as a mother. Given Fanaticums' ease of growth, and the speed with which they grow...one would take "the long way round" using hangianum as the mother. Having said that...I'd still be using hangianum as mother, when considering the giant-leafed species.

 

[John Boy]

I just found another intersting picture.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Paphiopedilum-Sh...en_Garten_Blumen_Pflanzen&hash=item3cae1dcb6e

I find that one on Ebay, just the flower-picture, rather fantastic. I would assume that this one was made the "malipoense x hangianum way around", whilst your example in post 85 was made the other way arround. Ramón, you wouldn't possibly happen to have a plant picture of that one?

 

[Kavanaru]

JB, there are many photos of Shun-Fa Golden. Different quality of flowers. Some of them are really fantastic (like the one in ebay - which, by the way, I am almost sure I know already from an asian nursery). They all show the strongly dominat malipoense staminodium. http://www.google.com/images?q=Paph...den&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

as per the info in ebay, the cross of thi splant was also hangianumxmalipoense and not the way around... but as always.... who knows.... hhmm... trying to remember which nursery is orchidfactory02 (I should have this somewhere)

as for the plant I photographed... gosh, I had to check those old pics I always make a pic of the label at the orchids shows in order to help with the name of the plants later on.. I luckily stil had thi sone (normally they are deleted after naming the photos)... as you can see, hangianum was the mother and the leave are strongly "marbled" (which once again, is not the case in my plant) and the plant habitus is also quite different to that of my plant. Note: there are two plants to be seen in the photo. Both of them are the same cross, and the photo of the flower I showed in my previous post, is from the right, from which you see several leave.

 

[Kavanaru]

here is one malipoensexhangianum posted by Olaf Gruss in another forum http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8158

P.S.- if I recall it correctly (I just had a look on the other pictures I had from the orchid show last year in Karlsruhe) the photo I posted earlier is from Franz Glanz (Wössner Orchideen)

 

[smartie2000]

It cannot be Paph Alois Handlbauer (hangnianum x Fanaticum). You plant does not have a tesselated staminode. I think that almost all of Alois Handlbauer would have tesselated staminodes because both Fanaticum and hangianum have some tesselations in the staminode.

It is not malipoense x hangianum

I can see the Harold Koopowitz x hangianum as a possibility. The dorsal size and width on your plant is suggestive of some roth influence. In addition the color of your paph is extremely dark, and the leaves have lost its tesselation, your plant resembles my hangianum x roth (which easily became multigrowth on my plant. I don't know if I will bloom it and it won't be as spectacular as your plant). As well the staminode is quite plain.

The only other parvi species I can think of with a plain staminode are Paph delenatii, Paph armeniacum and Paph vietnamense. And this bloom is not a primary cross between any of those.

 

[smartie2000]

I hope you will get a more positive ID when more hangianum crosses bloom out. Your plant is unlike anything bloomed yet and perhaps distinctive enough to ID. A search of the asian forums might yield better results if your noid is not the first blooming of the hybrid.

 

[John Boy]

I doubt that Ramóns plant was the first to bloom, whatever it is. Just look at its size... They would have flowered elsewhere, I'll bet ya.
One more thing: Fren, you mentioned delenatii. I've been busting my head with that idea as well, but I can't make out how it would fit in, or where.

 

[Kavanaru]

Being honest I also don't see malipoense or Fanaticum as possible parent. Both crosses look to different to me, especially the leave.

I am also convinced it is not a primary. rothxhang (Alexej) is a NO NO NO, the flowers are way too different too.

The idea HK seems very plausible to me, but I cannot be 100% sure of that (and have not found a single photo of this cross anywhere.

x delenatii is Paph. In-Charm Handel... no way, I have this cross. It has not bloomed for me, but the plant habit is totall ydifferent. I have seen many In-Charm Handel, and tehy are completely different too
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1102
http://www.cloudsorchids.com/images/5937_0.jpg

 

[Kavanaru]

retaking this thread one month later... few weeks ago I received confirmation from the nursery (not from the owner, but from the guy responsible of the slippers), that the plant was indeed mislabelled and that it should be Paph. Chen Samn Challenge (HKxhangianum... and which is more or less aligned with what we had discussed already)... in theory, the plants were bought from Franz Glanz (but who knows!)

today, I have found this photo in another forum (link below), and it looks different again... I think I will never know by sure what my plant is...


http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12529
I must admit, this is also not what I was expecting from HKxhangianum... I was expecting a better shaped flower...

I am not really sure about this, but... primary hybrids tend to be "quite" homogeneous in appearance, and the more species are involved in a hybrid, the highest variability is obtained, right? Could it be possible that the offspring from a primary with a species could be variable enough to have plants (in the case HKxhangianum) to look more like rothxhangianum and other looking more like malipoensexhangianum? I know that at least in catasetum this is case... this could explain, that if my plant indeed is Paph. Chen Samn Challenge, it could reasonable show differences to the Paph. Chen Samn Challenge shown by Olaf....

 

[NYEric]

Keep guessing! oke:

 

[Ryan Young]

It looks very similar to this one... which is philippinense x hangianum

http://fatmama-paphs.blogspot.ca/2011/07/paph-nathaniels-pride.html