SlipperKing
Madd Virologist
So the likelihood Rick's plant is a natural hybrid is highly unlikely then.
Phrag hirtzii
- Thread starter Rick
- Start date
Help Support Slippertalk Orchid Forum:
Rick
Well-Known Member
Rick The intense ruffling of the petals is reminiscent of boissierianum (and the others in that group like reticulatum) but those are also very big plants with leaf size about the same as longifolium.
In this case to get the plant leaves so small and narrow in comparison to longifolium you would need pearcei or amazonica/richteri in the background. I don't see how you could put boissierianum onto a normal longifolium and end up with a plant not much bigger than a richteri.
SlipperKing
Madd Virologist
I agree Rick, that's why we need Eliseo to show us more clones of hirtzii. To me, hirtzii has always been argue as a longifolium variant and not a species on it's own accord. Then others want to argue that it is a species. This has gone on for years. In order for either of these two view points to be held dear to heart of a lumper or a spliter, you have to have a plant looking like Eliseo. Agree? Then your plant comes along. It looks nothing like a longifolium. So, neither the lumper nor the spliter have a point to stand on. I think your plant is more complex then a primary and it's probably a man made creation. Either honesty or dishonestly the tag got altered and all that remain was hirtzii.
Can you see this view point?
So, if someone creditable, either from the natural area or a known Phrag guy can come up with more pictures of hirtzii (preferable in-situ) to show variation with in the hirtzii concept and show overlap with your plant, then I'll be convinced.
Can you see this view point?
So, if someone creditable, either from the natural area or a known Phrag guy can come up with more pictures of hirtzii (preferable in-situ) to show variation with in the hirtzii concept and show overlap with your plant, then I'll be convinced.
Rick
Well-Known Member
Actually if you look at the photos in McCooks old checklist and Gruss's article in OD, my flower looks more like those than Eliseo's . Which aside from missing the extra wavy petal edges is a lot closer to my flower than any longifolium. If it really has that big a range, that amount of variation is no big deal.
I don't know, but how complex can they mix stuff at Ecugenera to get to "complex" status?
I don't know, but how complex can they mix stuff at Ecugenera to get to "complex" status?
Rick
Well-Known Member
McCooks photo was supplied by Tom Kalina
Gruss has photos (including an insitu pic that is too small for detail) supplied by both him and Dodson (the guy who described the plant in 1988). So you would think that he would know his own plant if he saw it??
Gruss has photos (including an insitu pic that is too small for detail) supplied by both him and Dodson (the guy who described the plant in 1988). So you would think that he would know his own plant if he saw it??
SlipperKing
Madd Virologist
Tobias just posted a hirtzii of his and it looks very much like yours!
eteson
Phragmad
WOW! This thread is resulting really interesting!
I only have 2 clones of "hirzii", both two are wild collected (I hate to say that but I got both two from a local collector from the south of my Country). We have to wait a little bit to see the second one in bloom again, probably it is going to take about 4 months), but is very similar to the the one I posted.
My plant and Rick´s one are very different in flower shape (look at the staminode and the "tooth" in the upper rim of the pouch), but the leaves and the size of the plant seem to me very similar. Rick, could you measure the length and wide of the leaves?
If you take into account only the flower shape the Rick's plant could be something in between my plant and a boissierianum. I don't know how dominant are hirtzii or boissierianum in one hypotetical hybrid with respect to leaf size and plant size...
I am going to get more data about the exact location from where my plants where collected.
I only have 2 clones of "hirzii", both two are wild collected (I hate to say that but I got both two from a local collector from the south of my Country). We have to wait a little bit to see the second one in bloom again, probably it is going to take about 4 months), but is very similar to the the one I posted.
My plant and Rick´s one are very different in flower shape (look at the staminode and the "tooth" in the upper rim of the pouch), but the leaves and the size of the plant seem to me very similar. Rick, could you measure the length and wide of the leaves?
If you take into account only the flower shape the Rick's plant could be something in between my plant and a boissierianum. I don't know how dominant are hirtzii or boissierianum in one hypotetical hybrid with respect to leaf size and plant size...
I am going to get more data about the exact location from where my plants where collected.
Last edited:
Rick
Well-Known Member
http://www.ecuagenera.com/epages/wh...cts/PRS1383&ViewAction=ViewProductDetailImage
This is a picture from the Ecuagenera website pricelist. I'd say it looks just like my flower.
When I looked at Google Images, 2 pictures of Ecuagenera tours finding hirtzii in situ are shown. One has a pic of Frank Severa photographing them in-situ. So I'm pretty sure the Ecuagenera plants came from wild collected stock, and are not GH or otherwise man made hybrids.
This is a picture from the Ecuagenera website pricelist. I'd say it looks just like my flower.
When I looked at Google Images, 2 pictures of Ecuagenera tours finding hirtzii in situ are shown. One has a pic of Frank Severa photographing them in-situ. So I'm pretty sure the Ecuagenera plants came from wild collected stock, and are not GH or otherwise man made hybrids.
eteson
Phragmad
Then I guess that mine is one endmember variation of hirtzii (far from boissierianum).
I got the precise location where my plants where collected: road between Cali and Buenaventura in the south of Colombia (I have the precise location and it could be supplied to bona fide researchers).
Rick
Well-Known Member
It's cool that you have such precise collection data. I really don't think yours is that different when I compare the amount of natural variation in the pink ladyslippers up here just on the side of one hill (let alone crossing a couple hundred miles). If everything was a carbon copy, we'd get bored looking at the same flower over and over.:wink:
The biggest leaves on my plant are 1.5cm wide and about 35cm long.
eteson
Phragmad
You are true, can be natural variation... your plant and my plants come from places hundreds of Km away...
The leaves of my plant are a little bit smaller max 1.1cm wide and 30cm long
Rick
Well-Known Member
I also think the difference is small enough to see it in culture. I have posted pictures of my longifolium at different times of the year when the amount of red in the petals, red speckling on the back of the pouch, and overall size change dramatically from summer to winter. The cool/shady time makes for a much different flower.
Petal "twistiness" can vary a lot too with changes in humidity and nutrition (water balance).
My blooming plant is one of two plants I received from ecugenera too.
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30512
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30512
I just bought a hirtzii from Ecuagenera in May but it will be a while before it blooms. I asked Ivan Portilla in person if it was definitely an authentic hirtzii and he said absolutely without question. So it may be a while before it blooms but when it does I post a picture as well.
