Phragmipedium besseae var dalessandroi

[rauhaariger]

Does anyone of you know whether the Phragmipedium besseae var dalessandroi, which is offered at Ecuagenera, is really a dalessandroi? I also ask because dalessandroi is actually a species and not a variety.

 

[big923cattleya]

Well I am not certain that everyone will agree with you. Some hold firm in their belief that they are two separate species while many consider d’alessandroi to be a variety of besseae.
I won’t get into the specifics but it is a matter of opinion.

 

[big923cattleya]

I just looked them up once again to refresh my memory. I do see differences between the two but those are kind of subtle.
But in terms of your question posted, d’alessandroi is native to Ecuador. I will assume that Ecuagenera would be able to identify one from the other.
If it were me, I personally would trust them enough to sell me a d’alessandroi if that is what I wanted to purchase.
If for some reason later on you could prove that it wasn’t a d’alessandroi, I would give them a chance to make it right.

 

[Heather]

Well, I just bought one labeled as such from their live sale in CA last night. It’s in bud so we can discuss what it is when it blooms! I know their labels aren’t always accurate, plus the besseae species debate….so we shall see!

 

[Heather]

Well, I just bought one labeled as such from their live sale in CA last night. It’s in bud so we can discuss what it is when it blooms! I know their labels aren’t always accurate, plus the besseae species debate….so we shall see!

Just wanted to add, I paid less than half what they are listing them for on the website…if you are interested I’d suggest asking the CA branch on Instagram if they have any more. I think their next live sale is today on the Plant Story app…but it may not really be dalessandroi!

 

[terryros]

Well I am not certain that everyone will agree with you. Some hold firm in their belief that they are two separate species while many consider d’alessandroi to be a variety of besseae.
I won’t get into the specifics but it is a matter of opinion.

I agree. Kew Royal Botanic Gardens, which determines how hybrids get registered by RHS, still lists Phrag. dalessandroi as a separate species with a synonym of Phrag. besseae var. dalessandroi. Similar to the controversy over Phrag. schlimii and fischeri.

 

[MorandiWine]

Does anyone of you know whether the Phragmipedium besseae var dalessandroi, which is offered at Ecuagenera, is really a dalessandroi? I also ask because dalessandroi is actually a species and not a variety.

Yes they do offer it for sale. Cant confirm the purity of them though. Chuck Acker has flasks available. Here is one from a flask I got from him a couple years ago.

 

[FrankRC]

Just for the record dalessandroi is a variety of besseae and is not a separate species. The reasons why are not a matter of opinion but of facts.

 

[alex.sorensen51]

Rauhaarigger did say it, correctly though, although inferred according to the language usage.But,never mind..we got it. That varietal has a very dominant input on some crosses,for instance Wanakee Sunset,which reduces in size of flower,and instigates creeping growth of the runners.

 

[MorandiWine]

Just for the record dalessandroi is a variety of besseae and is not a separate species. The reasons why are not a matter of opinion but of facts.

Kew says otherwise.

https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:303734-2

 

[MorandiWine]

And this…..

https://www.researchgate.net/public...besseae_vs_Phragmipedium_dalessandroi_Dilemma

 

[alex.sorensen51]

That article from Dr Braeme says it well..Unless you have done the cytology, you cannot say what species you have, in the Bessae TYPE, because they hybridize so easily. You purchase what you like.

 

[ORG]

Phragmipedium dalessandroi is a species but was mixed so often in culture that you can trust not often what you have seen.
I had the possibility to see the species in nature and have seen the first plants in Europe in the collection of Jersey. Around 10 years ago Ken Lucyk tried to explain very detailed in an article in the German Journal 'Die Orchidee' the differences between. He had the experiences and knowledge with both species when he worked a longer time in Ecuador. Parts of this examination you find also in my Phragmipedidum-book.
The problem was later also thyt the first hybrids in Jersey with dalessandroi and not besseae.
Here a picture of a typical well cultivated plant

 

[alex.sorensen51]

dalessandroi has a creeping growth habit as well,while bessae has a clumping one, again making for a much different species

 

[MorandiWine]

dalessandroi has a creeping growth habit as well,while bessae has a clumping one, again making for a much different species

I think you might have them reversed. Phrag besseae tends to have more “stoloniferous” growth IME.

 

[alex.sorensen51]

it's possible,as I was looking at my two hybrids...one is (stoloniferous) growth type,while the number 2,is not creeping.

 

[alex.sorensen51]

But,both are going into bud

 

[Morja]

Parts of this examination you find also in my Phragmipedidum-book.

What is your book called? Sounds neat. Is there an English version (if published in German)?

 

[Heather]

Ok, this guy came pretty mangled…I’ll update if/when the next bud blooms. Labeled Phragmipedium besseae var. dalessandroi from Ecuagenera. I will say, the habit of the plant is much more upright than my besseae from Windy Hill, which has a very compact growth habit. New growth on this one is close to the first.

 

[big923cattleya]

That’s not mangled. I call those “formally challenged”!


Makes me feel a bit better especially if they are relatively new arrivals. Color is very nice!