Question on pH and KH.

[Paph_Person]

We've all known the importance of adjusting pH when watering our orchids. However, the topic of water kH (carbonate hardness) often gets overlooked. Recently, I had a conversation with Ray, who pointed out something interesting: the pH of the water doesn’t directly correspond to the pH in the potting media. In fact, the media pH can vary significantly regardless of the water's pH.

This raises an important question: what should the ideal kH of our watering water be? Especially ones whoo use RO water. Since kH acts as a buffer, it helps stabilize pH and prevents sudden fluctuations. Getting this right seems crucial for maintaining a stable environment for our orchids.

I’d love to hear your insights on the ideal kH levels.
Thanks.

 

[CharlesD]

I agree that potting media has biggest effect on root zone pH. Fertilizer solution pH is very important but if the potting mix is way out of range then it is hard to make an adjustment with just the water you pour through. I have 130ppm well water with 25ppm caco3 alkalinity. The pH is 7 so with fertilizer added closer to 6.4, 6.3. With the bark potting mix I use I think this gets pH in the right range. I flush with RO every 4th watering. I think a lot of people grow very nice paphs mixing fertilizer with city water or other alkaline hard water because their bark mix is acidic and fertilizers with some ammonium or urea tend to lower pH in fertilizer solution and in the root zone. Hence the end result is pH at the roots around 5.5 - 6.5

 

[Ray]

Alkalinity or KH targets will vary based upon the fertilizer used.

As a plant takes up ammonium ions, it secretes compensatory H+ ions, which acidify the substrate. Urea is also a source of ammonium ions. A plant taking up nitrates secrete OH- or HCO- ions, which raise the pH of the substrate.

Since KH is really just a measure of buffering, you need to figure out what CaCO3 content would provide that for your choice of fertilizer.

Bill Argo, the PhD for formulated the so-called “MSU” fertilizers and both K-Lite versions for me, wrote a series of articles on plant nutrition several years ago. They are worth a read (Primer on Plant Nutrition), but the 3rd installment addresses this directly.

 

[Stone]

A bit off topic, but it's worth remembering too that leaching is a common (if not the most common) reason pH drifts down even with 50/50 nitrate ammonium fertilizer. Nitrate added as fertilizer will not reduce pH but fertilizer added as ammonium will do so as, apart from the reason Ray mentioned, it is converted slowly to nitrate in the pot which then binds with cations (mainly Ca but others too) and takes the Ca with it as it is leached from the pot. (as Calcium nitrate) This is believed to be the main reason why pH drifts down in nurseries which mainly use ammonium or urea as their N.
Anions (nitrate, phosphate, sulphate, molybdate, (and boron behaves similarly) are negatively charged so they mainly remain in the water in the medium because most media surfaces have a negative charge and they are repelled. This is the reason we need to periodically add Calcium carbonate to reduce the acidity caused by ammonium ions. For example, for every 1 kg of Urea, the amount of Ca carbonate needed to restore pH is 0.75 kg. 1 kg of Ammonium sulphate requires 1.1kg of CaCO3! Just how much CaCO3 to use on the pot is for you to work out. My fertilizer is mainly Osmocote which is high in urea and Nutricote which is 50/50 ammonium/nitrate so I sprinkle a mix of ground limestone and dolomite (giving me about 4 or 6 to 1 Ca to Mg) about twice/year or more. My mains water is very pure. If you use a ratio of 2-3 nitrate to ammonium you may eventually need to acidify your solutions. But you may run into other problems.....

 

[CharlesD]

A bit off topic, but it's worth remembering too that leaching is a common (if not the most common) reason pH drifts down even with 50/50 nitrate ammonium fertilizer. Nitrate added as fertilizer will not reduce pH but fertilizer added as ammonium will do so as, apart from the reason Ray mentioned, it is converted slowly to nitrate in the pot which then binds with cations (mainly Ca but others too) and takes the Ca with it as it is leached from the pot. (as Calcium nitrate) This is believed to be the main reason why pH drifts down in nurseries which mainly use ammonium or urea as their N.
Anions (nitrate, phosphate, sulphate, molybdate, (and boron behaves similarly) are negatively charged so they mainly remain in the water in the medium because most media surfaces have a negative charge and they are repelled. This is the reason we need to periodically add Calcium carbonate to reduce the acidity caused by ammonium ions. For example, for every 1 kg of Urea, the amount of Ca carbonate needed to restore pH is 0.75 kg. 1 kg of Ammonium sulphate requires 1.1kg of CaCO3! Just how much CaCO3 to use on the pot is for you to work out. My fertilizer is mainly Osmocote which is high in urea and Nutricote which is 50/50 ammonium/nitrate so I sprinkle a mix of ground limestone and dolomite (giving me about 4 or 6 to 1 Ca to Mg) about twice/year or more. My mains water is very pure. If you use a ratio of 2-3 nitrate to ammonium you may eventually need to acidify your solutions. But you may run into other problems.....

@Stone interested to know what bark you use. I use orchiata so do not add lime until it is closer 6-12 months old. I think a lot of people prefer kiwi bark because it starts out in the ideal pH range for a lot of people’s water type. I don’t have experience with how stable its pH is under ammonium/urea fertilization. I do lime other orchids in sphagnum moss right away and every 6 months. Though still test pour through periodically to make sure I’m finding the right balance

 

[Stone]

@Stone interested to know what bark you use. I use orchiata so do not add lime until it is closer 6-12 months old. I think a lot of people prefer kiwi bark because it starts out in the ideal pH range for a lot of people’s water type. I don’t have experience with how stable its pH is under ammonium/urea fertilization. I do lime other orchids in sphagnum moss right away and every 6 months. Though still test pour through periodically to make sure I’m finding the right balance

When I use bark I use the orchiata but lately I have switched to platycerium fire (along with charcoal, perlite and a little bark - (maybe 15%)) as I have a good amount of it and don't have a huge number of paphs. So far I have found it vastly superior to bark - as far as physical properties - in my conditions. I think the bark has too low a buffering capacity so changes are more common with it - especially when it's new.
But as far as the pH is concerned, testing is the only way to know for sure but depending on your water quality and quantity you can expect the pH to start to drift down after one growing season without adding lime. (if you use ammonium/urea as the main N)
Actually removing some of the mix and testing it directly with a soil pH kit is probably better than the pour through.
I would not get too concerned about keeping an exact pH figure though, as long as you supply a good amount of trace elements. That is the difference between cultivation and habitat. In other words, we need to worry more about pH if the trace elements are in the less than optimum range.
Iron, zinc and especially copper are held very tightly (in any humus in the mix) against leaching if you add them - pre-potting to the mix - and there will be no need for them in the fertilizer if you do that. (I would need to look up amounts to add to a mix) Manganese will run out more quickly and so will boron.
It might be worth experimenting by adding a trace element mix (as sulphates) + lime to some peat and then scattering that through a moist bark mix?? You would have to be very careful with quantities.....
In the end, I think managing orchids will be easier if the trace elements are supplied in the mix before potting rather than in the solutions.
We know enough now about those things unlike the old days.. I would be interested to know what @SelectOrchids thinks about the subject. I actually don't like fertilizing with solutions and that's why I use controlled release types as much as possible so all I have to do is hose the plants with water.
But if your pants a vigorous and have good colour you don't need to change anything.

 

[CharlesD]

When I use bark I use the orchiata but lately I have switched to platycerium fire (along with charcoal, perlite and a little bark - (maybe 15%)) as I have a good amount of it and don't have a huge number of paphs. So far I have found it vastly superior to bark - as far as physical properties - in my conditions. I think the bark has too low a buffering capacity so changes are more common with it - especially when it's new.
But as far as the pH is concerned, testing is the only way to know for sure but depending on your water quality and quantity you can expect the pH to start to drift down after one growing season without adding lime. (if you use ammonium/urea as the main N)
Actually removing some of the mix and testing it directly with a soil pH kit is probably better than the pour through.
I would not get too concerned about keeping an exact pH figure though, as long as you supply a good amount of trace elements. That is the difference between cultivation and habitat. In other words, we need to worry more about pH if the trace elements are in the less than optimum range.
Iron, zinc and especially copper are held very tightly (in any humus in the mix) against leaching if you add them - pre-potting to the mix - and there will be no need for them in the fertilizer if you do that. (I would need to look up amounts to add to a mix) Manganese will run out more quickly and so will boron.
It might be worth experimenting by adding a trace element mix (as sulphates) + lime to some peat and then scattering that through a moist bark mix?? You would have to be very careful with quantities.....
In the end, I think managing orchids will be easier if the trace elements are supplied in the mix before potting rather than in the solutions.
We know enough now about those things unlike the old days.. I would be interested to know what @SelectOrchids thinks about the subject. I actually don't like fertilizing with solutions and that's why I use controlled release types as much as possible so all I have to do is hose the plants with water.
But if your pants a vigorous and have good colour you don't need to change anything.

Thank you for the info - I do have a little fern fibre but haven't experimented much with it. And good point about testing the actual substrate. I'm pretty happy at the moment with what I'm doing, I have for the past two months switched to a micro solution on top of my regular fertilizer. My water has 130ppm, pH 7, 25ppm CaCO3, 21ppm Ca, 8.4 ppm Mg but almost no micros. That is why I made the adjustment. Fertilizer is 20-20-20 6% Nitrate, 6% Ammonium 8% Urea. I found that Miller's makes a product called Citrus Mix with ratios similar to what Xavier suggests. I add Copper EDTA and Nickel Chloride to get the remaining elements and I dilute it to get 3mg/L Mn, 1mg/L Cu, 0.1mg/L Ni and the remaining elements in the citrus mix in proportion. The 4:4:1.6 Mn:Zn:Fe ratio and high B is what drew me to the product. Plants have responded well, growth picked up and less leaf drop of older leaves.

I sort of balance going crazy with making the day to day easy. I only mix the NPK fertilizer with the micros when I water and premix the micros. I agree with the controlled release and natural product ideas as well. I just have too many plants to standardize it. I feel like you may be right that we know enough to figure that out now but at the same time there are so many interactions that we still don't understand nor could we isolate. I do use Fish emulsion and Kelpak 1x per month to cover my bases for natural fertilizer component.

 

[CharlesD]

Here are some of my plants so you don't have to completely believe my word

 

[Stone]

Your feed is.. N 20% - P 8.8% - K 16.6% That is a P/N ratio of 0.44 which is more than double the P you actually need but they look pretty good regardless. I would consider bringing up the N to 30 to 35 with extra urea and the K to 20-25 (P2O5) with KSO4 and leave the P as is and see if you notice a difference in a couple of plants next season. The final solution concentration stays the same of course.
A higher P/N ratio of about 0.2 has been shown to reduce plant growth and flowering. Flowers have less P in them than leaves. High P is just not needed. I don't know why the US fertilizer people continue to add so much.....
But only if you like playing around with fertilizers.

 

[Ray]

I have been growing orchids for over 50 years. In that time, I have used a variety of fertilizer formulas - 15-30-15, 30-10-10, 20-20-20, 7-9-5, 3-12-6, 13-5-15, 12-1-1, 14-1-1, 15-0-0, 46-0-0 - some with nitrates only, some with ammoniums only, urea, or all kinds of ratios of them.

Guess what? They all worked!

I’ve pretty much come to the conclusion that you should select almost any fertilizer formula, as long as it’s complete, including Ca and Mg if your water supply doesn’t have them, and use it sparingly and regularly. Then, focus your attention on other aspects of growing, as they can have a greater impact on growth and flowering.

 

[CharlesD]

Your feed is.. N 20% - P 8.8% - K 16.6% That is a P/N ratio of 0.44 which is more than double the P you actually need but they look pretty good regardless. I would consider bringing up the N to 30 to 35 with extra urea and the K to 20-25 (P2O5) with KSO4 and leave the P as is and see if you notice a difference in a couple of plants next season. The final solution concentration stays the same of course.
A higher P/N ratio of about 0.2 has been shown to reduce plant growth and flowering. Flowers have less P in them than leaves. High P is just not needed. I don't know why the US fertilizer people continue to add so much.....
But only if you like playing around with fertilizers.

I was using a 30-10-10 where I s was living previously similar well water but more acidic - pH 6.3. Where I am now the pH starts at 7 and the 20-20-20 acidifies the solution more than the 30-10-10 so that’s why I’ve been using it. But again not sure how much that makes a difference at the root zone. Good point though. Eggshells on here grew such amazing plants with 25-10-10 with higher N from urea then ammonium then nitrate. The 30-10-10 I found has similar ratios. Will keep playing around

 

[CharlesD]

I have been growing orchids for over 50 years. In that time, I have used a variety of fertilizer formulas - 15-30-15, 30-10-10, 20-20-20, 7-9-5, 3-12-6, 13-5-15, 12-1-1, 14-1-1, 15-0-0, 46-0-0 - some with nitrates only, some with ammoniums only, urea, or all kinds of ratios of them.

Guess what? They all worked!

I’ve pretty much come to the conclusion that you should select almost any fertilizer formula, as long as it’s complete, including Ca and Mg if your water supply doesn’t have them, and use it sparingly and regularly. Then, focus your attention on other aspects of growing, as they can have a greater impact on growth and flowering.

I agree and maybe I’m still in phase of playing around with things until I realize that. My current justification is that I want to breed paphs so I want to maximize their culture as much as possible to grow up seedlings quickly. That’s why I’ve gone done the path with Xavier’s thoughts on urea, ammonium and micronutrients. I will say I’ve had very positive results but I was using dynagro 7-9-5 before and I don’t think the nitrogen level provided was sufficient.

Do you have thoughts on what the exact amounts/ratio of Ca and Mg required for continuous feed would be? I put the numbers earlier in this thread but my water has a decent amount of both so I’m currently not using calmag in fertilizers and trying to see the results. I’m not opposed to rotating in one such fertilizer I just wanted to see what happened with the amounts I have in my water and without using calcium nitrate

 

[Ray]

Just to make sure of something, all nitrogen-containing fertilizers can give the same amount. If you use twice as much of the 7-x-x as you do a 14-x-x, you will provide the same amount of nitrogen.

I’m sure opinions will differ on this, as well, but there seems to be at least two ways to answer the N:Ca:Mg, one is through tissue analysis of wild-collected plants which suggests about 20:2:1, and another is anecdotal, based up success people have had with various fertilizers. I know of folks doing great with calcium nitrate (15-0-0-19Ca), MSU (13-5-15-8Ca-2Mg), and K-Lite (12-1-1-10Ca-3Mg).

 

[CharlesD]

Just to make sure of something, all nitrogen-containing fertilizers can give the same amount. If you use twice as much of the 7-x-x as you do a 14-x-x, you will provide the same amount of nitrogen.

I’m sure opinions will differ on this, as well, but there seems to be at least two ways to answer the N:Ca:Mg, one is through tissue analysis of wild-collected plants which suggests about 20:2:1, and another is anecdotal, based up success people have had with various fertilizers. I know of folks doing great with calcium nitrate (15-0-0-19Ca), MSU (13-5-15-8Ca-2Mg), and K-Lite (12-1-1-10Ca-3Mg).

I was doing 1/4 tsp of both fertilizers that’s why I say less nitrogen. Trying to keep the amount of fertilizer mass added the same 20-20-20 or 30-10-10 gives more nitrogen. I just try to avoid high fertilizer concentrations with my paphs that’s why I had not doubled the amount of dyna gro.

I agree I’ve seen a lot of people use calcium nitrate with great success and I used it with the dyna gro. I just wanted to test the other side of the urea war given that I have Ca and Mg in my water. Honestly it sounds like of mix of both fertilizer types is the best. I have really nice deep green foliage but some plants have a made few skinny leaves some making normal and thick leaves. Those would be the biggest differences I’ve seen but it takes months (usually a leaf every 2 months for me ) to really see the effects of a different regime

I guess Ca and Mg absorption depend on other compounds present too so an across the board ppm number or ratio might not match the success rates people have in reality under different circumstances. I think it’s just an interesting question of how does one know when enough is being provided. Mg might be easier to guess as with Ca the plants might have to really deficient to show blackened leaf tips etc. I thjno the micro adjustment might in the end making the biggest difference for me in terms of holding growths and green leaves

You may also find it funny or scary where I am in Chester county the well water comes out with 15 ppm nitrate! We have an RO system just for our drinking water

 

[Stone]

I have been growing orchids for over 50 years. In that time, I have used a variety of fertilizer formulas - 15-30-15, 30-10-10, 20-20-20, 7-9-5, 3-12-6, 13-5-15, 12-1-1, 14-1-1, 15-0-0, 46-0-0 - some with nitrates only, some with ammoniums only, urea, or all kinds of ratios of them.

Guess what? They all worked!

I’ve pretty much come to the conclusion that you should select almost any fertilizer formula, as long as it’s complete, including Ca and Mg if your water supply doesn’t have them, and use it sparingly and regularly. Then, focus your attention on other aspects of growing, as they can have a greater impact on growth and flowering.

They ''all worked'' because you supplied some N to a plant which would otherwise starve.. In the long run however, they would not work equally well, that is for certain.
I think we can do a bit better than select almost any fertilizer and hope for the best.

 

[Stone]

Do you have thoughts on what the exact amounts/ratio of Ca and Mg required for continuous feed would be?

Charles, as is done with hundreds of thousands of container growth plants in soilless mixes around the world every year, calcium and magnesium are supplied via a pre-plant addition of dolomite and/or limestone to bring the pH of the bark (or peat) within the 5.5 to 6.5 range.
If you do that there is no need to for fertilizers to contain either. All you need to do is add more if and when the pH starts to drift below an accepted range. Usually in nurseries, nothing more is ever done because the plant is either sold or potted on with a fresh mix and a fresh supply of those elements around the roots. With very coarse mixes such as is used for orchids there may be far less buffering and more leaching so we might need to add lime now and then.

 

[Stone]

Just to make sure of something, all nitrogen-containing fertilizers can give the same amount. If you use twice as much of the 7-x-x as you do a 14-x-x, you will provide the same amount of nitrogen.

True but you still need to watch the P.

 

[Ray]

I have also evolved to the position that I folks worry too much about keeping the TDS low, or maybe it’s an understanding of what “low TDS” is.

First, be aware I’m speaking of the actual fertilizer concentration, not a reading on a crap TDS meter.

Over the years, I found that a 100 ppm N solution, applied weekly, seems to be a pretty good regimen for my plants under my conditions and media/growing techniques. However, now that I’m retired with a much less rigorous schedule to jump to, I find myself being a bit sloppy about that, and I can tell the plants are lagging. So, sometimes I’ll double the dose to compensate and I can see a real, positive response, so that suggests maybe I’ve been underfeeding, or at least, running the ragged edge with my irregular feeding.

A 100 ppm N K-Lite solution has a concentration of 0.74g/L or 740 ppm TDS (ignoring anything in the water), so when I double it I’m nearing a TDS of 1500 ppm, and have seen no issues, even for plants in S/H culture that are sitting the solution for a long time.

 

[CharlesD]

Charles, as is done with hundreds of thousands of container growth plants in soilless mixes around the world every year, calcium and magnesium are supplied via a pre-plant addition of dolomite and/or limestone to bring the pH of the bark (or peat) within the 5.5 to 6.5 range.
If you do that there is no need to for fertilizers to contain either. All you need to do is add more if and when the pH starts to drift below an accepted range. Usually in nurseries, nothing more is ever done because the plant is either sold or potted on with a fresh mix and a fresh supply of those elements around the roots. With very coarse mixes such as is used for orchids there may be far less buffering and more leaching so we might need to add lime now and then.

That is my current plan - since I’m using orchiata I think it will take a little longer before lime is needed - I do notice plants really hit their stride in that mix once it’s several months old. It is a tough balance not to cause deficiency by putting too much.

I’ve seen both sides on here some people say the like is just for buffering capacity and doesn’t have that much available Ca or Mg (for orchids at least). Given I have some in my water anyway I think I don’t need to worry too much. Maybe cal mag every once in a while. But for example there was an article in orchids by sue bottom where she talked with Roy tokunaga about potting mix pH and how to test it. It sounds like his promix/perlite/bark mixes acidify fairly quickly so he limes the mix. But uses both urea based and cal mag fertilizers. I think he said his water has no Ca or Mg though.

 

[KenAvant1]

Over my 50 plus years of growing..my water source has varied from RO to various water supplies depending on location and municipal water supply. Currently being in Middle Tennessee in a small community that the municipal has a couple taps on two different creeks…after chatting with them…found they were using one primarily. I thought it was time to have my water tested again. Sent a sample to Peter’s testing lab. I promptly received a result…and called to discuss the results and my desires as per water quality. My PH is a bit above 7, was concerned about adjusting PH. What was recommended was to alternate between two different Jacks formulas. After one year….very pleased with the results. For my money….the water test helped a lot.