Roth fever

[AdamD]

You all are killing me here! Some incredible things going on in Roth breeding and production. Justin- how was your flask from Sam? Ive been eyeing that cross for too long. I'm afraid he's going to sell out of it before I save up to get it. I've been racking up overtime lately building a greenhouse for the StL Cardinals new Ballpark Village. Unfortunately it will house drunks, not plants... But it's a very neat project. And it's helping me expand my meager Roth collection!

 

[Leo Schordje]

Doesn't anyone like rothschildianum 'Borneo' any more? In a way I'm only partially kidding, but I am partially serious. The line bred roths are starting to look like complex white Phals, truly the product of the breeder's art, wonderful to look at, but missing some of the charm of the original version of the species. What I like about 'Borneo' is that it is no where near as large a plant as most roths. You can bloom it in a 3 inch pot, and a mature plant with multiple growths won't need more than a 4 inch pot. It has its faults, narrow petals by todays standards. Small size flower, but compared to its foliage, the flower has impact.

I just bought 2 flasks from Sam Tsui. ('Leo' SM/JOGA x 'New Horizon' FCC/AOS) couldn't resist a cross with my name in the parentage. Also a one that hasn't come in yet. So I too am on the band wagon, I do like the modern breeding, but I have a fondness for the older clones too. I have 1 previously bloomed (MM x Rex) and 3 or 4 NBS roths of various crosses. The one I have bloomed this century was mediocre at best. In the dark ages I had 'Janet' FCC/AOS that had a clear provenance to Janet & Lee Kuhn (not one of the miss-labeled impostors) but due to my own bungling I killed it in the late 1990s. I did bloom it 3 times before it died, and it was glorious. Its measurements compared favorably with any roth awarded right up until about 2000 or so. Now the modern ones have much wider segments and are a little bit larger on natural spread. If I saw a division of it, or 'Commander' or 'Excelsior' available for less than $500 I would snap it up again in a heartbeat.

I had gotten good advice from a mentor Paph grower decades ago. Buy six or more seedlings of a cross, rather than one seedling of six crosses. If you bloom six from one cross, odds are in your favor that at least one of the six will be significantly better than the rest. (and odds are good one will be a dog). Compost the dogs, gift or sell the rest, keep the one. You might get lucky buying just one, but if I can I like to buy groups of seedlings or flasks.

 

[AdamD]

That brings up a great question Leo. How do you think 'Perfection' or 'Raptor' would do if it were introduced into the wild?

 

[emydura]

If I saw a division of it, or 'Commander' or 'Excelsior' available for less than $500 I would snap it up again in a heartbeat.
.

I could have got a single growth division of Janet for a lot less than $500. Now you are making me regret that miss. I assume it was the legitimate Janet although I had never seen it in flower.

 

[Fabrice]

@Leo: I agree with you except about the beginning of your post.
Yes, we can like Borneo and I would be very happy to have this piece of rothschildianum story in my collection.
But don't forget Rex is wild collected, Mont Millais is wild collected, Dou Fong is wild collected, Nikko Shogun is wild collected, etc…
And they didn't wait human to produce wonderful flower (compared to Borneo what is a compact roth, one of the 1st discover but in my taste, not really charming like the famous wild collected Mont Millais for example and maybe the worst flower for a wild collected plant.)

As tells my Taiwanese friend (about one of his wild collected rothschildianum with 6 flowers and very good flower), the natur is a good breeder too.

 

[eggshells]

I do like it too in fact. I call them "skinny" roths. I have an excelsior x red glory. I saw a cross (from JPMC) with excelsior is one of the parent and I really liked it. Unfortunately, it is the slowest growing of my rothschildianum seedlings. It could be the clone or it could be the cross. I am leaning towards the former.

 

[Leo Schordje]

@ Eggshells, speed of growth. There is always a range of growth rate in a batch of seedlings, Every flask I have ever planted out has had one or two that gallop ahead of the pack, sometimes blooming as much as 2 years before the next group to start blooming. Then there will be the 'middle' of the bunch. Then there will be the stragglers. A friend raised a flask of (MM x Rex), one seedling galloped ahead and bloomed in only 3 years! Yes, it really was only 3 years from flask. The flower was nice, but nothing remarkable. The next seedling to bloom was at 5 years, and had a better flower. The majority came in at 6, 7 & 8 years. Unfortunately he got out of orchids, sold his plants. I lost track of where his 3 year roth ended up. This was some 15 years ago. But there is always a range in growth rate of seedlings. One plant will proves nothing in characterizing all the progeny of a cross. But a sampling of 6 seedlings will say something about the whole cross. You need more seedlings.

 

[Justin]

I for one am in love with old school roths like Borneo, which is actually a pretty nice flower in my eyes. Same for Charles E.

 

[Leo Schordje]

@Leo: I agree with you except about the beginning of your post.
Yes, we can like Borneo and I would be very happy to have this piece of rothschildianum story in my collection.
But don't forget Rex is wild collected, Mont Millais is wild collected, Dou Fong is wild collected, Nikko Shogun is wild collected, etc…
And they didn't wait human to produce wonderful flower (compared to Borneo what is a compact roth, one of the 1st discover but in my taste, not really charming like the famous wild collected Mont Millais for example and maybe the worst flower for a wild collected plant.)

As tells my Taiwanese friend (about one of his wild collected rothschildianum with 6 flowers and very good flower), the natur is a good breeder too.

OK, actually you are right that a large number of the seedlings available now are only F1 from wild collected stock. I'll grant you that. I overstated the case. I did exaggerate the situation.

But even if 'Borneo' is one of the smaller WC rothschildianum, it is far from the worst, in my mind the worst is 'Charles E', mainly for its paucity of flowers, infrequent flowering and generally poor growth characteristics which it does pass on into its progeny. I have also seen un-named seedlings of many crosses, including (MM x Rex) that were clearly inferior to 'Borneo'. Not all new seedlings will have great flowers. For awards to mean something 80% or more shown should be declined for awards. 'Borneo' has really nice dark coloring. A lot of recent seed crosses are made using parents with light or white backgrounds to their flowers, such as Mount Milais. I personally am fond of rothschildianums with more yellow in the background of their flowers, such roth 'Old Mill' HCC/AOS - the award was to a first bloom seedling, I've seen it on subsequent blooms and it is pretty good, better than HCC in my book. My point is that most the new crosses are emphasizing only one direction of possible 'looks' for a rothschildianum flower. Rothschildianum with the exception of maybe a half dozen plants was lost to cultivation during WWII. The Collinette Expedition which re-introduced wild collected roths back into cultivation was in 1959, so there has been enough time to possibly be in the F4 generation from wild species. The 'Old Mill' clone was from a batch of seedlings produced by Rex van Delden back in the 1970s.

Anyway, don't get me wrong, I like the bigger than..., more flower than...., flatter than...., whiter background with darker stripes than..... say 'Mount Milais'. I do like these flowers. But I also like the darker colors over yellow. And I like the more compact plants too.

 

[Fabrice]

Yes Leo, you're right.

First I confused Borneo and Charles Edouard…

And then, I judged on photos and there's often a big difference with the reality…

So, I would be really happy to receive a division from your Borneo to judge it correctly! oke::rollhappy:

 

[ehanes7612]

I once had 200 seedlings from 11 different crosses but it was difficult keeping my enthusiasm alive for roths (slow growing and having 3 adults die from rot before they bloomed)...i am down to 3 OR x MM , SC x Perfection and a couple others as well as three budding/ blooming adults..I kinda have a small bug again for a flask and inquired about the raptor flask Sam has..he may have one left...but I definitely want to keep my small seedling count to a minimum. May buy his package deal down the line for NBS plants.

 

[AdamD]

I would highly recommend it. I got the all Japanese breeding package and I'm now thinking about getting the other NBS package down the line. I repotted them Saturday, roots looked good and actively growing! Justin got the second to last Raptor flask. That was about a month ago, so hard telling if Sam has any left.

 

[ehanes7612]

he has two left from a shipment from last week ..i will be getting one

 

[AdamD]

Ugh I'd hate to get it and systematically decimate what could possibly be the last flask of potentially the greatest roth cross to date... You know? I couldn't live with that guilt!

 

[Justin]

Nice buy...My raptor flask had high plant count and is growing very well. I had no losses from this flask.

 

[ehanes7612]

roths are pretty easy to deflask...and seem to do much better than any other paph seedlings in my experience..

 

[Justin]

'New Horizon' x 'Raptor' flask pictorial:



With Sam's flasks and my conditions I have good luck leaving most of the agar on--I just wash enough off so as not to disturb the roots.

The flask spent 3 weeks in a humidity tent with the end open for air circulation, and is now out growing with the rest of the plants...

 

[ehanes7612]

i had great success with washing all the agar off and separating them..young roth roots seem to be very tuff

 

[AdamD]

Jealous! Very nice seedlings. You guys are killing me with roth envy... Most look bigger than my PEoYs 6 months out of flask!

 

[Fabrice]

Very nice seedlings! I hope same for me in some weeks.

And about this cross, I hope the potential will be same than the 2 parents. But not sure. Surprise in some years...