Rothschildianum x sib (Imperial Wings x Giant Wings GM/WOC) in bloom

[CharlesD]

Don't remind me! What a disappointment it was!

When I was collecting plants about 15 years ago I bought plants from both the orchid zone and from Sam. The orchid zone's listing for roths didn't have any provenance for the parents and I thought I was getting a more sure chance from Sam's stuff because of the 'great' TON parentage. Honestly glad those plants died so I didn't have the disappointment!

 

[CharlesD]

By the way, did you ever resolve the leaf spotting problem you were having a while back?

 

[treefrog]

Honestly glad those plants died so I didn't have the disappointment!

Hahahahaha, that one good way to take life!

By the way, did you ever resolve the leaf spotting problem you were having a while back?

Good point, I will dig up this tread to give a follow up!

 

[MichaelTibbs]

Honestly this flower has a lot of kolopakingii and my guess is it’s kolopakingii x philippinense I do not see any rothschildianum in this hybrid

 

[treefrog]

A Paph. Temptation?

 

[Tom-DE]

A Paph. Temptation?

Not trying to discount M.T's suggestion, I do see rothschildianum/ss...
Mathieu, You can always make up your own mind here.... you can compare the details of the fully developed flower with all the suggestions...including Gary Romagna.

 

[BrucherT]

There’s rothschildianum in the laterals, dorsal and labellum. Basically throughout. I’m trying to see the kolopakingii at all; maybe in the labellum’s green color? But not in its shape.

 

[Julius]

Lord I’d be so mad if I flowered a “rothschildianum” that came out a jeezly hybrid! I’d haunt Sam from the grave! lol. I’m with the St. Swithin guessers. Looks like a compact phillipinense was used. Not seeing the kolopakingii stuff others note.

I think I agree. At first I was on board with the leaf width. But I would think the leaves are much longer as well. My St Swithin is quite similar so I will join that vote. This is a repost of my kolopakingii x haynaldianum 'Maple. I looked at some pics of both parents and both seem to have the trait of blooms more staggered alternating on the raceme. Both parents also have similarily curved dorsal sepals . A couple more nods to St Swithin

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

I think I agree. At first I was on board with the leaf width. But I would think the leaves are much longer as well. My St Swithin is quite similar so I will join that vote. This is a repost of my kolopakingii x haynaldianum 'Maple. I looked at some pics of both parents and both seem to have the trait of blooms more staggered alternating on the raceme. Both parents also have similarily curved dorsal sepals . A couple more nods to St Swithin
View attachment 51702

Wow that is quite cool

 

[Tony]

Lord I’d be so mad if I flowered a “rothschildianum” that came out a jeezly hybrid! I’d haunt Sam from the grave! lol. I’m with the St. Swithin guessers. Looks like a compact phillipinense was used. Not seeing the kolopakingii stuff others note.

I've bloomed out so many mislabeled plants from Orchid Inn that I've stopped counting them. I don't know if Sam was having trouble keeping things straight or maybe had some bad help that mixed things up but his plants from the last few years are a mess. I'm at the point where I just want to compost everything that hasn't bloomed out yet, I can't sell or give any away in good conscience knowing the odds of them being mislabeled.

 

[Justin]

When I was collecting plants about 15 years ago I bought plants from both the orchid zone and from Sam. The orchid zone's listing for roths didn't have any provenance for the parents and I thought I was getting a more sure chance from Sam's stuff because of the 'great' TON parentage. Honestly glad those plants died so I didn't have the disappointment!

Back then they were true to label.

It is only in more recent years that the issues began. When I saw what was happening I ended up giving away all my flask compots and seedlings from the last 5-6 years or so.

 

[treefrog]

Did anyone ever got some explanations from Orchid Inn. These flasks and plants were not on the cheap en of the spectrum.

 

[Tony]

Did anyone ever got some explanations from Orchid Inn. These flasks and plants were not on the cheap en of the spectrum.

The first time it happened (a plant labeled as Johanna Burkhardt x roths bloomed out with unmistakeable stonei influence) I emailed him about it and he told me the flower color was pale because I gave the plant too much light. I didn't bother after that when more plants started blooming out wrong.

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

The first time it happened (a plant labeled as Johanna Burkhardt x roths bloomed out with unmistakeable stonei influence) I emailed him about it and he told me the flower color was pale because I gave the plant too much light. I didn't bother after that when more plants started blooming out wrong.

Looks like is has stoni. Lady Isabel or even crossed with roth again

 

[Tony]

Looks like is has stoni. Lady Isabel or even crossed with roth again

It turned out to be Hilo Bald Eagle, I bought a dozen plants of that cross and it became clear as they bloomed.

 

[CharlesD]

Back then they were true to label.

It is only in more recent years that the issues began. When I saw what was happening I ended up giving away all my flask compots and seedlings from the last 5-6 years or so.

So they were definitely roths but given what I’ve seen and looking at how many people actually have bloomed nice stuff from there I’m doubtful they were true to their pedigree. What is your opinion from what you’ve seen from that period? I just remember that back then I just thought these must be the best but I didn’t put too much thought into provenance or the really limited gene pool of actually nice parents.

They all had giant wings or tarantula or Canadian club as the parents. I just feel given how he seemed to ubiquitously have all of these really well bred roths it seems logical in retrospect that many weren’t true to the parents

 

[jtrmd]

I bloomed out many of Sam’s mislabeled plants over the years. Never got a true roth out of the compot I bought. If I remember correctly most looked like what could have been lady Isabel. Same happened towards the end of OI with other different multiflorals.

 

[emydura]

The first time it happened (a plant labeled as Johanna Burkhardt x roths bloomed out with unmistakeable stonei influence) I emailed him about it and he told me the flower color was pale because I gave the plant too much light. I didn't bother after that when more plants started blooming out wrong.

I am stunned by Sam's response.

 

[emydura]

They all had giant wings or tarantula or Canadian club as the parents. I just feel given how he seemed to ubiquitously have all of these really well bred roths it seems logical in retrospect that many weren’t true to the parents

Why would you retrospectively assume they weren't true? I would have assumed that one of the world's biggest Paph breeders would acquire the best plants for breeding purposes. Sam actually spoke at our society meeting many years ago. He told the story of how he acquired lowii 'Grand Masterpiece' that had won grand champion at the World Orchid Conference. The owner didn't want to sell it, but Sam ended up making an offer the owner couldn't refuse. Sam said as a leading Paph breeder, he had no choice but to get the best plants to breed with, no matter the cost.

I am not saying these TON roths from OI are legitimate. In fact, I am now very skeptical myself. But I also would have expected he would have acquired the best roth clones to breed with.

 

[CharlesD]

Why would you retrospectively assume they weren't true? I would have assumed that one of the world's biggest Paph breeders would acquire the best plants for breeding purposes. Sam actually spoke at our society meeting many years ago. He told the story of how he acquired lowii 'Grand Masterpiece' that had won grand champion at the World Orchid Conference. The owner didn't want to sell it, but Sam ended up making an offer the owner couldn't refuse. Sam said as a leading Paph breeder, he had no choice but to get the best plants to breed with, no matter the cost.

I am not saying these TON roths from OI are legitimate. In fact, I am now very skeptical myself. But I also would have expected he would have acquired the best roth clones to breed with.

Maybe I have been influenced by some others posts on here. But again I think you have posted the only really nice Roth I’ve seen from his breeding. He also never produced pictures of his stud plants. And if his material is was that good why didn’t he get more awards? He was in business long enough you’d think he would have bloomed out some nice roths.

I will say his non Roth material was often truly very good. And it may not have been him mislabeling the roths and multis. A lot of this for me has just been realizing that mislabeling Roth flasks is a good scam as most hobbyists will never bloom them out and any that do that are bad is just ‘genetic variation’. When in reality species sib crosses should be somewhat uniform compared to other hybrids