s/h growers another repotting question

[Candace]

You all are going to do what ever you want, regardless of what I advise. Carry on and good luck to your plants.

EDIT "My organic mixes are hydro and therefore wetter than S/H media"
There are very few commercial growers that grow orchids hydroponically in organic medium and have large resale operations where they sell said plants at shows etc. Name one, please.

 

[NYEric]

EXCEPT.....I just paid $100.00 for a phrag and $39.00 to have it sent by air because of the cold. Grandma

OK, I'll bite, what did you get and from where?

 

[gonewild]

You all are going to do what ever you want, regardless of what I advise. Carry on and good luck to your plants.

Of course we are all going to do what we want, but we certainly appreciate what you advise. I especially appreciate hearing about your growing experiences with s/h but would like to hear reasons for what you advise. For instance, why you feel s/h is wetter than organic media. Maybe in reality it is?

 

[Inverness]

I have about 300 plants in S/H using Prime-Agra (new & old type) under HID lighting. I will agree waiting until new growth is taking place is best; however, if circumstances seem to require it, I'll repot anytime, generally with good results. I have lost some plants, but that goes with the cultivation of any living thing.

Ken Brewer

 

[Candace]

Grandma, your new phrag should be in active growth right now. I know mine are! I've got like 30 of them in bloom or bud and throwing up growths like crazy. I don't think you should worry about switching it over to s/h. Do it!


Ken, I'm interested in your observation of the new prime agra, as I haven't use it yet. As for is it wetter than regular medium, a look at Ray's testing of wicking capabilities will show you how much water the medium retains. With organic mixes I don't dispute some can hold a lot of water, but the medium is allowed to dry out between waterings(optimally) whereas leca sits in water 24/7 soaking and wicking up moisture. Ideally, it's supposed to never dry out.

I've also switched some plants over when I shouldn't have(not in active growth) and most lived, but had to be babied. What works for others, great! But I've got over a thousand plants and I don't have the time or willingness to babysit and hold me breath over a few plants. That said, certain plants can be moved over to s/h in less than optimal conditions easier than others. Paphs and phrags can be moved over seemingly at any time and some resent it some don't, whereas cattleyas, vandaceous and some others resent it badly when not in active growth. It really depends on the plant, growing conditions and time of year. That's why the "rule" isn't really a rule, but a suggestion.

 

[Inverness]

Candace, - Late summer early fall I potted asssorted phrags, miltonias, and several others into the new PrimeAgra. All appear to be doing well. Lot's of new roots forming. It does stay more moist (at least for me), but that is what I was looking for. I will agree, catts seem to be the most sensitive of the genera I've worked with regarding an optimum repotting time. My culture in general is everything gets watered every 4-6 days, year round, feeding at every watering (MSU - 125 ppm N). Most things adapt and prosper, but some don't and end up as compost. For me, S/H and PrimeAgra have enabled better growth and flowering than anything I've tried before and I've been growing 40+ years. An aditional comment, I've tried some other types of expanded shale/clay media; for my conditions, PrimeAgra is superior.

Ken Brewer

 

[gonewild]

EDIT "My organic mixes are hydro and therefore wetter than S/H media"
There are very few commercial growers that grow orchids hydroponically in organic medium and have large resale operations where they sell said plants at shows etc. Name one, please.

I doubt there are any large resale orchid growers who grow hydroponically (except for perhaps the Hawaiian lava growers). Growing plants hydroponically or s/h does not lend itself well to resale for a number of reasons. But the fact that resale growers don't grow by either of these two methods is not a reflection that the methods are not great for growing. Resale growers must be concerned with after care and shipping. Not to mention the extremely high per pot cost of PrimeAgra compared to bark.

 

[gonewild]

An aditional comment, I've tried some other types of expanded shale/clay media; for my conditions, PrimeAgra is superior.

Ken Brewer

Can you elaborate why PrimeAgra is superior?

 

[Grandma M]

Eric
It's Stairway to Heaven, in bud, from Orchids Limited. It should be here tomorrow.

Candice
Wow!! 30 in bloom at the same time sounds like a touch of heaven.

I guess I'm just a bit hesitant because of having it shipped in this weather. I'm afraid the shock of the cold may set it back a bit. I may wait about a week or two. I talked to Jason from OL about putting it into S/H and he thought it would do well to transplant now. It is about 3 weeks from opening.
All of my phrags and paphs are in S/H. I also have many in bloom now and I would like to tell them to space out their blooming a bit so I can enjoy them over a longer period of time. It depends on the variety, but some of them don't last as long as others.

I'll post a photo of my phrag. sendenii var. Roseum 'Bern Crest' which has just started to flower. I will wait until a couple more flowers open before I take another photo.

Grandma

 

[Inverness]

Lance - Water uptake seems to be very consistant and uniform, I think the wicking is better too. With some others I've tried, different batches seemed to take up and hold water differently (batch to batch of the same product). As a result, I'd have dry and wet pots on the same bench; and for the way I water, this doesn't work. I'm not saying everything is of perfectly equal moisture content when using PrimeAgra, but there is far less varience.

Ken Brewer

 

[gonewild]

Lance - Water uptake seems to be very consistant and uniform, I think the wicking is better too. With some others I've tried, different batches seemed to take up and hold water differently (batch to batch of the same product). As a result, I'd have dry and wet pots on the same bench; and for the way I water, this doesn't work. I'm not saying everything is of perfectly equal moisture content when using PrimeAgra, but there is far less varience.

Ken Brewer

Thanks, that is good to know how it compared. I have all my seedlings in PrimeAgra (old style). I like it a lot.

I recently got a box of the new style in the fine grade and I don't like it's physical shape. The pebbles are round now and don't lock together. Because I'm planting seedlings into it directly out of flask the lack of stability is a concern. I was going to plant some new kovachii seedlings into it but now I'm not sure about it. I experimented and learned how to grow in the old style and now the difference Maybe I'll mix the old coarse and new style fine together.

Have you noticed any problems with minerals or salts in the new style?

 

[Candace]

Ken and Lance, I'm interested in hearing more about your experiences with the new stuff. I've only got the old primeagra and have been recycling it after cleaning, of course. About 50% of my plants are in hydroton or aliflor. Hydroton is available locally for me. The hydroton doesn't wick as well as the primeagra, which is fine for my catts. But, I prefer the primeagra as well, and typically use it for my more expensive plants and paphs. I agree it's the superior product out of the three for s/h. It wicks up the water and does stay much wetter throughout the pot than the hydroton.

I guess this thread has hit a hot button of mine. I read post after post on different forums of people trying s/h then complaining their plants died or are severely set back. After question and answer sessions come to find out they switched to s/h when the plant wasn't active. Then they chime in on other threads that s/h doesn't work...sort of maddening really.

 

[Inverness]

Candace - I can only comment on my direct experiences, but I've noticed in other threads some folks mix it with other materials, some use something other than PrimeAgra, some use standard clay or plastic pots and many other variations. While everyone is free to do as they wish, S/H is a "system" created by Ray Barkalow, First Rays Orchids. There is lot's of valuable info about this process at his website. This is not a paid plug, just fact!

As far as salts or other issues with the new product, I haven't had any; in fact, I compoted several phrag and phal flasks into the new material (fine grade) and have been happy with the results.

Ken Brewer

 

[Cinderella]

I guess I opened a can of worms with this thread. Anyway, s/h has been berry berry good to me. Actually was very good for me as a beginner because I was overwatering a whole lot. It is great for new growers before you can really figure out how frequently to water based on your conditions.

Altho recently a couple of my oncids and my Phal Mini Mark showed some decline and when I unpotted them the roots were rotten (I mean the new roots which grew in s/h). These plants were repotted at the right time so I don't know what happened there. One theory is that they got too cold?

The Phal Mini Mark has dimped.

 

[Candace]

Lance said, "I doubt there are any large resale orchid growers who grow hydroponically (except for perhaps the Hawaiian lava growers). Growing plants hydroponically or s/h does not lend itself well to resale for a number of reasons. But the fact that resale growers don't grow by either of these two methods is not a reflection that the methods are not great for growing. Resale growers must be concerned with after care and shipping. Not to mention the extremely high per pot cost of PrimeAgra compared to bark."


You're exactly right, but what I meant by that comment was that someone growing hydroponically in inert medium in a NY apartment is not typical. And doesn't negate my argument about the orchids having to acclimate to a wetter environment. That's not the typical grower. I don't think s/h will ever be commercially successful. One large reason, the increase in shipping plants to customers. And that's one of the main reasons why I don't think the s/h philosopy of growing will ever be more popular than growing in organic medium. You're right about there being many reasons. Besides the cost of medium that you mentioned, the increase in cost of fertilizer comes to mind. Some older growers don't like the weight issue at all. Those with arthritic hands have a lot of problems lifting the pots. And many people complain my plants "pee" on them, when they lift them up. :>
__________________

 

[NYEric]

Eric
It's Stairway to Heaven, in bud, from Orchids Limited. It should be here tomorrow.

Argh! Now I have to go look up the cross.

 

[gonewild]

Argh! Now I have to go look up the cross.

wallisii x warscewiczianum

 

[NYEric]

Ya, thanx I looked it up. It's a little green for me.

 

[Carol]

S/H Growing

I have to say that I quite enjoy this thread. I have been growing in s/h since Ray came to our society(OSWP)in the fall of 2005 for a talk. I dove right in with my phrags(7) and paphs(50) and would say 99% are doing fantastic. I had problems with approximately 3-4 and might have had the same problems growing in bark or coconut. Some of the phrags are watered with a lower nutrient strength due to burning of leaf tips. Four of the seven are in bloom now, so they are happy. There is also a few oncidium types and miltoniopsis potted up in s/h and are growing much better than in conventional mixes. By the way, OSWP is holding their spring show "Spring into Orchids" on March 24,25 if any of you are in the Pittsburgh, PA area. Great show, but then I am co-chair this year. Looking for info go to oswp.org.

Carol

 

[IdahoOrchid]

I guess I opened a can of worms with this thread.

No, you did not, not by any means. It was a little touch and go there for a while, but recovered very nicely.


My question is what about the transition the other way: s/h to organic. Has anyone had occation or tried to do it? I ask this because of the periodic, and I know this is crazy but it does happen, desire to sell or trade a plant. I have purchased some compots with the intention of using them to sell or as trade bait. Should I leave them in organic or go s/h and transition them back to organic prior to sending off?


OK, I have two questions. What is a typical startup cost? OK, I am going to Ray's site right now before I get lynched......