Sand anybody?

[gonewild]

"Sand' does not come from limestone mountains.

If you anticipate gaining the benefits of using sand in your potting mix use the 'washed river sand' like I first described in my grower's manual from 1984.

OK forget limestome mountains if you think they don't make sand.

Closer to your home how about sand from the Santa Ynez River which comes from marine deposits and sand from The Kern River which comes from granite.

Do you consider the sands from both rivers equal in their nutrient values for potting media?

 

[Rick]

Is you well deep or shallow?
Where does the water column stand in the well, is it deeper than before?
Maybe you have more or less water in the formation so the mineral dilution is now different. Or could indicate that there is some new water source entering your well. When you see the chemistry of well water change it is wisse to look for possible contamination.

The well bore ~150 ft and pump sits at about 125'. We've only pulled the pump out of the hole a couple of times over the last 16 years we've been here and water was only ~60 ft down the hole (and that was in the middle of a drought when many wells were actually failing in the area. Rainfall in the last year was pretty high, and you might have heard we had record flooding in my neck of the woods last spring. Karst limestone is pretty crazy for fast changes when old solution channels break down, so hard to say. We haven't had any visual changes in clarity, or increases in "sand" coming through the pump.

I also need to check the well water straight up in case something is leaching out of the pump sprayer that I use for mixing and watering (although I thought I ran enough through to rinse out the hose). Since I ran fertilizer the day before.

 

[gonewild]

The well bore ~150 ft and pump sits at about 125'. We've only pulled the pump out of the hole a couple of times over the last 16 years we've been here and water was only ~60 ft down the hole (and that was in the middle of a drought when many wells were actually failing in the area. Rainfall in the last year was pretty high, and you might have heard we had record flooding in my neck of the woods last spring. Karst limestone is pretty crazy for fast changes when old solution channels break down, so hard to say. We haven't had any visual changes in clarity, or increases in "sand" coming through the pump.

I also need to check the well water straight up in case something is leaching out of the pump sprayer that I use for mixing and watering (although I thought I ran enough through to rinse out the hose). Since I ran fertilizer the day before.

If you can check to see how far down the water is now that might give you a clue if some aquifer has dried up or is producing more water.
Any chance surface flood water got into your well?
Is your backflow preventer (check valve) working correctly?

It wouldn't take much residue hiding in a hose to throw off your tests.

 

[Rick]

If you can check to see how far down the water is now that might give you a clue if some aquifer has dried up or is producing more water.
Any chance surface flood water got into your well?
Is your backflow preventer (check valve) working correctly?

It wouldn't take much residue hiding in a hose to throw off your tests.

The well bore is only 4" in diameter with a steel cap supporting the pump, so its not easy to look down the well.

Well pump and presure tank seem to be working good (just got replaced less than 2 years ago), check valve would apear fine. Our house and well house are pretty close to the top of the ridge, and no errosion gulleys pointing at the well house, so no obvious surface water getting in (usually when that happens, your water will be obviously muddy too, which it's not).

The conductivity right off the house line did read 600+. The phosphate only read 0.12 ppm. So the erroneous phosphate value came from the pump sprayer, but my well water has increased in salinity. (At least since 2002)

 

[Howzat]

I have been using ground limestone for 20 years. It is just like coarse sand. But i guess that it also releases a micro amount of calcium. I used to use chunky broken limestone in the mix. But ground lime stone is easier to get/buy in 25kg bag and only cost $12. It last me for years. I also notice that I do not have to repot every year. But every so often I top it up with a spoonful of the ground lime stone. Last year I decided to repot the lot. Some have been in the same pot for 3-4 years.

 

[likespaphs]

i really want to add sand but i'd like to find a local source and i still don't feel confident finding the right sand at a home improvement center. web search at lowes for concrete sand gives some results but i don't know which is good and which is bad. paver sand?
please help!
thanks....

 

[Rick]

i really want to add sand but i'd like to find a local source and i still don't feel confident finding the right sand at a home improvement center. web search at lowes for concrete sand gives some results but i don't know which is good and which is bad. paver sand?
please help!
thanks....

I'm just using the "play sand" sold in any HD or Lowes. The first bag was white and did elevate pH in distilled water in the lab, but in the moss the pH boost was not noticeable. The newest bag (with the exact same labeling) is yellowish, and I haven't done any recent pH checks. I also have been adding some "cichlid sand" that I bought at Petsmart, which appears to be aragonite sand, which is known to buffer aquarium pH and provide calcium.

 

[Jim Toomey]

I use play sand from toys are us... Nice big grains.

Rick, can you add to much sand to the mix?
I've been wetting the sphagnum and adding in PrimeAgra (since I still have a bunch) and perlite. It seems to be a pretty chunky mix, in a good way.
It averages to be 3 parts sphagnum and two (+) parts the inorganics.

 

[Rick]

I use play sand from toys are us... Nice big grains.

Rick, can you add to much sand to the mix?
I've been wetting the sphagnum and adding in PrimeAgra (since I still have a bunch) and perlite. It seems to be a pretty chunky mix, in a good way.
It averages to be 3 parts sphagnum and two (+) parts the inorganics.

It's all still pretty new to me Jim so we'll just have to see. Another way to consider this, is that when people grow SH its nothing but inerts (clay balls). So if we consider a continuum from pure inerts' to pure moss (and I have successful and unsuccessful experiences in both extremes) we will find the balance for individual species and plants for our particular growing circumstances (how is that for non committaloke:oke.

But I think that's were the nutrition aspect comes heavily in to play. I have an emersonii that I have not moved into a basket, which is doing very well in a mix that's lost most of its organics, and is now mostly limestone chips, perlite and charcoal. The big growth came in when I boosted Mg and well water addition to my irrigation watering. I had some experiments at work with garden vegies (tomatoes, lettuce, and radishes) that had control plants grown in straight sand. They were puny in comparison to organic potting mix, but all produce edible size product.

So far I think my baskets are closer to 4:2 moss to inorganics and fairly dense rather than chunky.

 

[Ray]

I would think sharp, horticultural sand would be better than "play sand" from a packing perspective. "Paver" sand might be a good alternative, but is likely ground up granite, not pure silica sand.

 

[SlipperFan]

Where would one find horticultural sand, Ray???

 

[Ray]

I used to be able to get it from local garden centers, but haven't seen any around for a while. It was sometimes known as "sharp sand", as it was jagged, crushed quartzite, rather than the weathered, rounded sand dug from beaches or sand pits.

 

[goldenrose]

i really want to add sand but i'd like to find a local source and i still don't feel confident finding the right sand at a home improvement center. web search at lowes for concrete sand gives some results but i don't know which is good and which is bad. paver sand?
please help!
thanks....

I'm just using the "play sand" sold in any HD or Lowes....

I use play sand from toys are us... Nice big grains.

Rick, can you add too much sand to the mix?....

Play sand is A-OK! I just did my bog garden, play sand is recommended, not paver sand which supposedly can have additives that could be harmful to CPs. If it's potentially harmful to CPs then I wouldn't consider it for orchids. How many times has reference been made to Lance's basic formula? (8 parts med.fir bark, 2 parts chopped moss, 1 part 16 mesh silica or river sand). There's a tried formula, why not use that as a starting point? Koopowitz's book has Nick's formula (7 parts small Douglas fir, 1 part clean construction sand, 1 part charcoal, 1 part coarse perlite), there's another but the question is what is considered construction sand?
Types of sand have been discussed here before & play sand has been in agreement with many members here.
Can one add too much sand, in my experience, yes. When repotting, I found that you have to be continually tossing the moistened mix. The sand is heavy & ends up at the bottom of the bucket if you don't. Some repot using dry ingredients, dry sand, do I need to tell you where that will end up? Anyway, if the sand remains more evenly dispersed thruout the mix that's great but get pockets or globs of sand and I didn't find that to be desirable, it's hard to describe but it can really throw off the watering for that one plant. I messed around for a couple of years with this type of mix, I don't think it's quite the answer for me but I don't know what is yet either or will I ever!?

 

[likespaphs]

thanks everyone!
i'm just worried i'm gonna not be able to find what's recommended and get something that ends up toxic to the plants
would putting the sand on top of the media be okay (sorta like topdressing with oystershell) or would it not work its way through the mix?

 

[Rick]

thanks everyone!
i'm just worried i'm gonna not be able to find what's recommended and get something that ends up toxic to the plants
would putting the sand on top of the media be okay (sorta like topdressing with oystershell) or would it not work its way through the mix?

It works its way thru a pot of bark or through basket of moss (more slowly). But that's really how I introduce it to either system, and just water in.

 

[SlipperFan]

I used to be able to get it from local garden centers, but haven't seen any around for a while. It was sometimes known as "sharp sand", as it was jagged, crushed quartzite, rather than the weathered, rounded sand dug from beaches or sand pits.

I've heard of sharp sand. I'll have to look around.

 

[NYEric]

OK. If I go to home depot or lowes, and no they are still not really in manhattan, what do i buy?

 

[Ozpaph]

If you don't have a lot of plants, a pet or aquarium shop should have coral sand or shell grit. There must be one of those in Manhattan?

 

[Rick]

If you don't have a lot of plants, a pet or aquarium shop should have coral sand or shell grit. There must be one of those in Manhattan?

Those materials will provide calcium, and some buffering. The sand we have been talking about in this thread is just plain old non reactive or buffering silicon based sand. But yes if you go to the aquarium section of Pet Smart you can usually find some type of non buffering silica sand too. That's were I got the bag of "cichlid sand" which has aragonite sand that will buffer and provide calcium, and I'm pretty sure I saw some non reactive sands from the same company (Caribsea) for regular fresh water aquariums that want lower pH.

The stuff I'm getting from HD is called "play sand" for kids sand boxes.

I don't think for the relatively small amount to ammend the potting mix it makes any difference whether its angular or smooth, white or yellow. Just something finer than gravel, but coarser than dust. Wash the dust out first.

 

[SlipperFan]

I don't quite understand this. It seems to me that fine sand, like play sand or builders sand, would simply wash through the media. I've tried it on a very small scale, and it ends up on my greenhouse floor.