Slipper Orchid Conservation Classification

[SlipperFan]

So are you saying we should not try to conserve orchids in their habitat because people will mow everything down anyway?

Not quite. I think it is very important to try to preserve habitat. But if we don't address population explosion, I don't see that habitat being preserved for very long. People have a way of taking what they need to survive.

I fully agree. I am not sure the human race as a whole has come to the point of realization that we must protect habitats and use the earths resources more wisely. Things may still have to get worse before human's really make conservation a priority. Or maybe we will be lemmings and just jump off the cliff with no realization. It is hard swimming against the tide and convincing enough people to turn the tide from the cliff. What also makes it hard is most of us now will be dead before human's get to that cliff.

Or maybe when we have totally trashed the earth, we'll have invented the technology to travel to another planet so we can trash that, also.

That's pretty cynical. Most of the people on earth are good people who want to do the right thing as they know it. Lemmings is a good analogy -- most of us are followers. Unfortunately, we follow the wrong guidelines. And most of our leaders, politicians and religious, are responsible for that.

 

[Mark Sullivan]

Having bumped into you a few times on the internet Dot that was what I thought you would say.

 

[Braem]

Not quite. I think it is very important to try to preserve habitat. But if we don't address population explosion, I don't see that habitat being preserved for very long. People have a way of taking what they need to survive.


Or maybe when we have totally trashed the earth, we'll have invented the technology to travel to another planet so we can trash that, also.

That's pretty cynical. Most of the people on earth are good people who want to do the right thing as they know it. Lemmings is a good analogy -- most of us are followers. Unfortunately, we follow the wrong guidelines. And most of our leaders, politicians and religious, are responsible for that.

First of all ... cynical or not ... let me tell you (without giving a full lecture) that man will NEVER trash another planet, because it will never reach any planet where it can survive in numbers. **** sapiens was made by earthly nature and required that earthly nature to survive.
Secondly, **** sapiens will not survive its overpopulation .... for several reasons ... but to explain that I would have to get into political topics ....

 

[SlipperFan]

Having bumped into you a few times on the internet Dot that was what I thought you would say.

Internet???

 

[Mark Sullivan]

Internet???

I have heard similar, adamant, arguments about human over population from someone named Dot before. Maybe the Orchid Digest? I may have gotten confused. Are you Dot Barnett?
As far as internet, Slippertalk Orchid Forum is on the internet. I meet you here. I suspect that I have seen posts by you in other places on the internet though I am not sure where. I know many people, not personally, but through various ways on the computer. The internet makes this all possible including this forum.
I agree that human over population is a big problem.

 

[Howzat]

Maybe we should learn from the Chinese one child per family????
But there are lots of side effect problems. 1 infanticide (baby girl killing) 2. kidnapping (boys). 3. Skewing of population (more male). 4. Not to mention, that once this happen, lot of other social problems will surface.

 

[Howzat]

Let me put this again. I wholeheartedly support any local protection of habitat. But before we do this, we have to tackle wholesale deforestation.
Only last year, at TIOS, I met an Indonesian lady who said that her husband is now in West Papua working. I asked what he does and she replied :" He is surveying and meeting logging companies to deforest the 1500km2 concession of virgin land for future palm oil plantation". I wonder how much they spent on bribes to obtain 1500km2 of forest concession.
Kalimantan has been lost, now the government and its corrupt officials are taking bribes to award concessions for palm oil plantation to other part of Indonesia. So what chances do you have in protecting a small local orchid habitat!!! No.1 Stop wholesale forest (flora/fauna habitat), which needs international intervention, 2. Then once this is done, we can establish the preservation of localised orchid habitat , 3. Encourage the ex situ proliferation of orchids (and any other plants) 4. Then maybe trade restriction measures of wild collected plants can be installed. Something "similar" to but not like CITES in its current form. And certainly not the way CITES USA policy in "illegalising" flasks where the parentage is "illegal"
The thousands of orchids being plundered by the little men is probably only 0.00001% of all orchids disappeared in government's sponsored deforestation program.

 

[Braem]

I have heard similar, adamant, arguments about human over population from someone named Dot before. Maybe the Orchid Digest? I may have gotten confused. Are you Dot Barnett?
As far as internet, Slippertalk Orchid Forum is on the internet. I meet you here. I suspect that I have seen posts by you in other places on the internet though I am not sure where. I know many people, not personally, but through various ways on the computer. The internet makes this all possible including this forum.
I agree that human over population is a big problem.

I teach that stuff in my Biology courses 101 (general Biology) ans 215 (Ecology) and I am surprised that so few people realize how critical the problem of overpopulation is. Google for "world population clock" and youe will get a UN site ... just sit and look at the clock for one minute .... and you will understand.

Mankind is committing suicide .... and killing this planet while doing it .....

 

[Braem]

Maybe we should learn from the Chinese one child per family????
But there are lots of side effect problems. 1 infanticide (baby girl killing) 2. kidnapping (boys). 3. Skewing of population (more male). 4. Not to mention, that once this happen, lot of other social problems will surface.

It has been tried ... it does not work ...

 

[Ernie]

I teach that stuff in my Biology courses 101 (general Biology) and 215 (Ecology) and I am surprised that so few people realize how critical the problem of overpopulation is. Google for "world population clock" and you will get a UN site ... just sit and look at the clock for one minute .... and you will understand.

Mankind is committing suicide .... and killing this planet while doing it .....

I agree 10,000%, Dr Braem. My feelings on this are strong, so I'll spare you all my diatribe.

 

[gonewild]

I agree 10,000%, Dr Braem. My feelings on this are strong, so I'll spare you all my diatribe.

I agree strongly too. Except I don't think mankind is committing suicide. Suicide is done on purpose and for a reason. Mankind is simply doing what the human species does, not for any purposeful reason.

 

[SlipperFan]

I have heard similar, adamant, arguments about human over population from someone named Dot before. Maybe the Orchid Digest? I may have gotten confused. Are you Dot Barnett?
As far as internet, Slippertalk Orchid Forum is on the internet. I meet you here. I suspect that I have seen posts by you in other places on the internet though I am not sure where. I know many people, not personally, but through various ways on the computer. The internet makes this all possible including this forum.
I agree that human over population is a big problem.

Yes, I'm Dot Barnett. But I don't remember posting opinions anywhere else on the internet. Letters to the editor in our local paper, yes. Lots of photographs on several websites, yes. I got the Orchid Digest Diamond Award from my society, but that is the only time my name's been in that magazine -- no opinions. So that's why I'm a bit perplexed.

 

[NYEric]

She doesn't even know how famous she is!

 

[SlipperFan]

Famous? Or infamous?:rollhappy:

By the way, Mark. Today I remembered how you might know my name. Some time ago, I emailed you for permission to print one of your articles in our Society's newsletter. And I'm on your e-newsletter list.

 

[Mark Sullivan]

Overpopulation

Maybe we should learn from the Chinese one child per family????
But there are lots of side effect problems. 1 infanticide (baby girl killing) 2. kidnapping (boys). 3. Skewing of population (more male). 4. Not to mention, that once this happen, lot of other social problems will surface.

Yes, I agree there is a lot to learn from one child per family policy of China. It did slow down China's population growth but at a high price as you mention in your post. The social problems are already surfacing, higher crime rate in all crimes, sex trafficking, and rape. There were thoughts that women would become more valuable and be able to be more choosey. The opposite has happened they have become a commodity and only valuable to criminals. China had a one child policy that led to more men, but countries like India and Indonesia have cultural biases toward giving birth to boys and have the same problems.

So what is the probable way out of overpopulation - give women equal rights to men, family planning, and education. All have proven to reduce or reverse population growth. People with higher education have less children. The US would experience a population decline if it wasn't for immigration.

The barriers to tackle overpopulation are cultural and political and thus very formidable.

 

[Mark Sullivan]

Indonesia, over population, palm oil

Let me put this again. I wholeheartedly support any local protection of habitat. But before we do this, we have to tackle wholesale deforestation.
Only last year, at TIOS, I met an Indonesian lady who said that her husband is now in West Papua working. I asked what he does and she replied :" He is surveying and meeting logging companies to deforest the 1500km2 concession of virgin land for future palm oil plantation". I wonder how much they spent on bribes to obtain 1500km2 of forest concession.
Kalimantan has been lost, now the government and its corrupt officials are taking bribes to award concessions for palm oil plantation to other part of Indonesia. So what chances do you have in protecting a small local orchid habitat!!! No.1 Stop wholesale forest (flora/fauna habitat), which needs international intervention, 2. Then once this is done, we can establish the preservation of localised orchid habitat , 3. Encourage the ex situ proliferation of orchids (and any other plants) 4. Then maybe trade restriction measures of wild collected plants can be installed. Something "similar" to but not like CITES in its current form. And certainly not the way CITES USA policy in "illegalising" flasks where the parentage is "illegal"
The thousands of orchids being plundered by the little men is probably only 0.00001% of all orchids disappeared in government's sponsored deforestation program.

Howzat, it is interesting that you bring up Indonesia as it is the third country behind China and India with a population explosion. I think saving orchid habitat in Indonesia will just about be impossible. Not only do you have a population problem, but as you mention you have a lot of corruption, illegal logging, planting of oil palm, and stripping of orchids.

Oil Palm in Gunung Leuser National Park.

Oil Palm is found in everything food, lotion, cosmetics, and now being grown for biofuel. Even with the problem overpopulation, people in the US need to be aware that while our population is comparatively small we use about 25% of the worlds resources. This puts market pressure that helps cause illegal logging and planting of crops like oil palm.

You can read the full Gunung Leuser National Park story at: http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/hl/gunungleuser.html

There are slipper orchid habitat that is directly endangered by illegal logging and oil palm planting: Paphiopedilum primulinum, Paphiopedilum tonsum, and Paphiopedilum victoria-regina.

Paphiopedilum victoria-regina photo by Eric Hunt ©

 

[Mark Sullivan]

Dot and Overpopulation

Yes, I'm Dot Barnett. But I don't remember posting opinions anywhere else on the internet. Letters to the editor in our local paper, yes. Lots of photographs on several websites, yes. I got the Orchid Digest Diamond Award from my society, but that is the only time my name's been in that magazine -- no opinions. So that's why I'm a bit perplexed.

Hello Dot,

Congratulations on your Orchid Digest Diamond Award. I do remember your news letter request. The Orchid Digest was talking about was the Orchid Guide Digest OGD for a time until now they have truncated it probably much to the chagrin of the Orchid Digest from where you got your reward. So I remember post like this from On Apr 30, 2006, at 6:04 PM,

Default Population and pollution

Steve,

Now we are getting somewhere. Incentives, tax or otherwise, for
having fewer children would certainly be a step in the right
direction. So would education. But first, governments need to be
convinced that population control is for the common good.

As for China, they needed to reduce their population, not merely
sustain it. We may not agree with their methods, especially since
their program resulted in the deaths of the undesirables (females)
and as a consequence, now there are many more males in China than
females (of marrying age). And who knows what the consequence of that
will be.

Perhaps a pro-active solution is better than a re-active one. Like
your tax incentive idea.

Dot

I have a long memory and with the help of internet you can dig up past posts
Actually kind of scary, as whatever, you post exists maybe forever?

Slippertalk post are well cataloged by search engines too.

Anyway I agree with what you have written about overpopulation now and in the past.

 

[Howzat]

Howzat, it is interesting that you bring up Indonesia as it is the third country behind China and India with a population explosion. I think saving orchid habitat in Indonesia will just about be impossible. Not only do you have a population problem, but as you mention you have a lot of corruption, illegal logging, planting of oil palm, and stripping of orchids.

Oil Palm in Gunung Leuser National Park.

Oil Palm is found in everything food, lotion, cosmetics, and now being grown for biofuel. Even with the problem overpopulation, people in the US need to be aware that while our population is comparatively small we use about 25% of the worlds resources. This puts market pressure that helps cause illegal logging and planting of crops like oil palm.

You can read the full Gunung Leuser National Park story at: http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/hl/gunungleuser.html

There are slipper orchid habitat that is directly endangered by illegal logging and oil palm planting: Paphiopedilum primulinum, Paphiopedilum tonsum, and Paphiopedilum victoria-regina.

Paphiopedilum victoria-regina photo by Eric Hunt ©

Thanks Mark. Gunung (Mt) Lesuer is habitat of primulinums , vic reginae, liemiana and many others.
In Indonesia, the plundering of rainforest is also meant to accomodate the term "Transmigration", to move people from the heavily populated Java and Madura to Sumatra, Kalimantan, Sulawesi, Maluku islands and West Papua. Effectively it is also called "javanisation" of the whole Indonesia. Spreading javanese and its muslims religion to other parts which were not dominated by muslims. It has already created racial tension where javanisation has taken place with the locals. The latest clashes were in 2001 in West Kalimantan when the Dayak people revolted by killing Madurese and the ongoing clashes between thewest papuans and their javanese neighbours. Tax incentives would not work here as these javanese villagers have never paid any taxes . They don't even know what tax is. It is similar in principle to Greater Serbia or Yugoslavia as it was known before, when Tito sent many sebs across to Croatia, Kosovo.

 

[Mark Sullivan]

Indonesia

Howzat do you live in Indonesia?

I would like to do more stories about the plight of orchids in Indonesia.

Indonesia and Madagascar are probably the most dire orchid conservation disasters that are occurring as far as countries go. Both have unique flora, orchids, and fauna. Both are being logged, stripped, and converted to agriculture. Indonesia has some added aspects that are worse than Madagascar, as you noted- population explosion, rampant corruption, moving of people, and religious strife. I have great doubts that conservation efforts of a magnitude enough will take place in these countries especially Indonesia. The minds of the people have to be changed and that doesn't look like it will happen anytime soon.

 

[Rick]

I fully agree as long as you protect the habitats ... if you don't (AND WE DO NOT), there is no point in listing the species in those habitats ... to the contrary, such lists are counter productive, as attention (and funds) is drawn away from the habitats that should be protected.
You can turn it any way you want, as long as you don't protect the habitats all the rest is hot air and a waste of time, effort and money.

However, critical habitats are never considered critical without a consideration of the species in those habitats.

No one ever says "lets save this forest because it has lost of white pine for paper and building materials", but a few say "lets save this forest because it has high species diversity, with some rare species included".