Submitting plants recently purchased in bloom: ethical or unethical?

[NYEric]

Isn't it nice to have the option!

 

[Candace]

It was stated before, the plant doesn't have to have an award to breed with it. And I assure you, if the owner is interested at all in breeding with it, they will. They aren't going to wait for strangers asking for pollen to do so. And I would bet many plant owners with a recently awarded plant would not share pollen with strangers, anyway.

 

[NYEric]

The point is, per the australian system, no-one in the general public can even see the plant. Imagine if the award winning Armeni White was purchased in bloom but couldn't be shown and died.

 

[Candace]

So....? There are only a room full of people that have seen it, now. Plus, I've brought it in for show and tell for at least 3 years. So, the "general public" has seen it for years. In this case my OS. In Australia the plants can be seen, simply not judged for 6 mos.

If it was purchased in bloom and died, then maybe it wasn't a strong genetic plant anyway. Or the grower was a complete dork.

 

[NYEric]

So....? There are only a room full of people that have seen it, now. Plus, I've brought it in for show and tell for at least 3 years. So, the "general public" has seen it for years. In this case my OS. In Australia the plants can be seen, simply not judged for 6 mos.

If it was purchased in bloom and died, then maybe it wasn't a strong genetic plant anyway. Or the grower was a complete dork.

Wow, now I've earned a new title.

"In Australia the rule is that you must own a plant for 6 months before submitting it for judging in either a show or for an award."

The said plant, whether awarded or not, probably got more exposure from being shown, and certainly will from the judging and award. Remember the feeling you got from the producers compliment about your culture. Well suppose you picked out a plant and it bloomed in 4 months, BUT YOU COULDN"T SHOW IT! I don't see the benefit in this system.

 

[Candace]

You could put it in a show, it would be viewed, it just wouldn't be eligible for an Australian award. I really don't see the problem. I don't know if you've ever been around a judging table, but people aren't tossing pollen around in a free-for-all. Owners of these plants don't lock them away from the general public and then unveil them at an AOS judging. It doesn't work that way.

Well suppose you picked out a plant and it bloomed in 4 months, BUT YOU COULDN"T SHOW IT!

I'd know it would bloom again for me, so it wouldn't bother me in the least. Plants grow and bloom all the time:> Yes, unless the grower is a dork.

 

[NYEric]

Hmmm, maybe a GNYOS show AOS judging or 2[5]. The point is if you bloomed your plant in less than 6 months it couldn't be judged. Doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Heather]

You could put it in a show, it would be viewed, it just wouldn't be eligible for an Australian award.

EXACTLY. As I stated long ago, in my society, you can bring the plant in to show it just isn't elegible for a ribbon or award!

 

[Drorchid]

As a breeder I have no problem with people buying a plant "in-bud" and bringing it to a show. If it does get an award (HCC, AM, or FCC), I feel like it is the plant that got the award (and not the person who brought it there), and thus if it comes from my line of breeding, I feel like I got part of the award too. The more plants that come from my line of breeding that make it to shows the greater chance I have that one of my hybrids will get an award.

Unfortunately we can't bloom out all our seedlings our selves, so often customers buy some of our plants in bud before I have seen them bloom, so once in a while they may pick out a "winner" and if they take the plant to a show, and it gets an award I think it is a good thing!

I do agree with Candice that getting an award is part genetics and part cultural, but without good genetics the plant will never get an award, but by growing it well, it will bring out it's full potential. As an example the Paph. Armeni White that got an FCC. I think that plant has great genetics, but probaly due to Candice's great growing skills it bloomed to it's full potential and thus got an FCC. If someone else (with not as good growing conditions) would have bloomed it, and taken it to a show, it may have gotten an HCC or an AM.

I do feel different about someone that just bought a plant and would take it to a show and it would get a cultural award, I don't think that person deserves it (if he or she has had the plant for less than 6 months). But I think this probaby very rarely hapens.

That is just my take of things as a breeder.

P.S. When my first seedling bloomed of my first Paph. cross that I ever made, we took it in for judging and it got an AM! I felt so proud of my first baby! (and it meant I was doing something right!)

Robert

 

[Rick Barry]

This conversation suggests a number of issues that that may be of concern to those of us that exhibit at shows and occasionally enter plants for judging.

Rules for exhibiting at a show are established by the society sponsoring the event. Societies have nearly complete control over the establishment of such rules. Most societies require that a plant has been in the possession of the exhibitor for at least six months to be eligible for ribbons and show trophies. The intent in establishing such a rule is to prevent exhibitors from receiving recognition for plants grown by others. As a statement of principle the rule is praiseworthy, but as a practical matter it is largely unenforceable.

Exactly how does one establish when a plant came into their possession? Certainly a receipt or bill of sale cannot be required because so many plants are acquired through trades, as gifts, and from society opportunity tables. The word of the exhibitor must suffice, along with a faith in the honesty of all participants. Such faith is frequently revealed to be misguided, though proof is hard to establish. Even if ownership can be proven, how do you deal with plants that are boarded in commercial greenhouses? Such plants can hardly be considered to have been cultivated by their owners, or at least not entirely. One could argue that such plants violate the spirit of the rules and are little different from plants purchased just prior to the show. Show rules are based upon the honor system, and the honor system only applies to the honest.

When a society show includes judging by a regional or national society, such as the AOS or the CSA, the rules governing the judging are established by those respective organizations, independent of whatever rules are established for the local show. The AOS takes the position that flower quality is independent of culture. The assumption is that if a plant makes it through the screening process its culture was at least adequate. They long ago realized that any six-month ownership rule is unenforceable anyway and would only benefit the dishonest. They actually take this philosophy one step further, allowing exhibitors to receive flower quality awards on cut flowers shipped to the judging center. In theory, you can receive awards for flowers from plants you don't even own, though it is hard to imagine the motivation for doing so.

With respect to cultural awards, the AOS enforces the six-month rule, even with the knowledge that it can be circumvented. Should a dispute arise over who actually grew an awarded plant (and really deserves the cultural award), they have little choice but to accept the word of the exhibitor. As mentioned above, it may be debatable whether one who boards their plants should be eligible for any cultural awards.

Growers must use their own standards regarding the ethics they apply in exhibiting their plants. Even the six-month rule can be considered arbitrary. Some orchids can take over six months to go from initiating a spike to full bloom. One could buy a Cymbidium in October and enter it in a show and/or for AOS judging in April. One could do the same with Paph malipoense or any number of other orchids. In such cases, could the exhibitor really claim to have grown the plant? It is at least debatable.

I don't really feel that I deserve credit for a blooming unless I grew the specific growths that are in bloom. To me, truly growing a plant is to nurture a new growth from its first appearance to full bloom. To my mind, that is the only way to establish that I am actually capable of growing a plant. Otherwise, I feel like I am simply finishing someone else's work. Growing and blooming orchids gives me a tremendous feeling of accomplishment, but only if I feel that I deserve full credit for that accomplishment.

When it comes to AOS or CSA awards, I'll take them when I can without violating any of the judging authority's rules. If I have a plant that I think is truly awardable, I'll try to get it judged, even if I bought it in bloom. If it is awarded I'll be happy for that, because awards add value to a plant, and I would get some satisfaction out of feeling that I have a good eye for quality in orchids. Nevertheless, I would prefer that it be a plant that I grew (by my own definition of 'growing') because that would give me an additional sense of accomplishment. I would be even happier to know that I grew the plant from seed (or even flask or seedling).

I do feel that some exhibitors at shows are far too oriented towards getting ribbons, trophies and awards for their plants. I sometimes internally question the motivations of such exhibitors, and some behavior I have observed I can only attribute to selfishness. In the interest of harmony, I try to keep such opinions to myself.

Regards,
Rick

 

[kentuckiense]

I don't know if you've ever been around a judging table, but people aren't tossing pollen around in a free-for-all.

I'm sorry, but this is a positively fantastic mental image. I picture lots of giggling and some occasional tickling.

 

[Candace]

Excellent comments, Rick.

I'm sorry, but this is a positively fantastic mental image. I picture lots of giggling and some occasional tickling.

Good one...

 

[rdlsreno]

This conversation suggests a number of issues that that may be of concern to those of us that exhibit at shows and occasionally enter plants for judging.

Rules for exhibiting at a show are established by the society sponsoring the event. Societies have nearly complete control over the establishment of such rules. Most societies require that a plant has been in the possession of the exhibitor for at least six months to be eligible for ribbons and show trophies. The intent in establishing such a rule is to prevent exhibitors from receiving recognition for plants grown by others. As a statement of principle the rule is praiseworthy, but as a practical matter it is largely unenforceable.

Exactly how does one establish when a plant came into their possession? Certainly a receipt or bill of sale cannot be required because so many plants are acquired through trades, as gifts, and from society opportunity tables. The word of the exhibitor must suffice, along with a faith in the honesty of all participants. Such faith is frequently revealed to be misguided, though proof is hard to establish. Even if ownership can be proven, how do you deal with plants that are boarded in commercial greenhouses? Such plants can hardly be considered to have been cultivated by their owners, or at least not entirely. One could argue that such plants violate the spirit of the rules and are little different from plants purchased just prior to the show. Show rules are based upon the honor system, and the honor system only applies to the honest.

When a society show includes judging by a regional or national society, such as the AOS or the CSA, the rules governing the judging are established by those respective organizations, independent of whatever rules are established for the local show. The AOS takes the position that flower quality is independent of culture. The assumption is that if a plant makes it through the screening process its culture was at least adequate. They long ago realized that any six-month ownership rule is unenforceable anyway and would only benefit the dishonest. They actually take this philosophy one step further, allowing exhibitors to receive flower quality awards on cut flowers shipped to the judging center. In theory, you can receive awards for flowers from plants you don't even own, though it is hard to imagine the motivation for doing so.

With respect to cultural awards, the AOS enforces the six-month rule, even with the knowledge that it can be circumvented. Should a dispute arise over who actually grew an awarded plant (and really deserves the cultural award), they have little choice but to accept the word of the exhibitor. As mentioned above, it may be debatable whether one who boards their plants should be eligible for any cultural awards.

Growers must use their own standards regarding the ethics they apply in exhibiting their plants. Even the six-month rule can be considered arbitrary. Some orchids can take over six months to go from initiating a spike to full bloom. One could buy a Cymbidium in October and enter it in a show and/or for AOS judging in April. One could do the same with Paph malipoense or any number of other orchids. In such cases, could the exhibitor really claim to have grown the plant? It is at least debatable.

I don't really feel that I deserve credit for a blooming unless I grew the specific growths that are in bloom. To me, truly growing a plant is to nurture a new growth from its first appearance to full bloom. To my mind, that is the only way to establish that I am actually capable of growing a plant. Otherwise, I feel like I am simply finishing someone else's work. Growing and blooming orchids gives me a tremendous feeling of accomplishment, but only if I feel that I deserve full credit for that accomplishment.

When it comes to AOS or CSA awards, I'll take them when I can without violating any of the judging authority's rules. If I have a plant that I think is truly awardable, I'll try to get it judged, even if I bought it in bloom. If it is awarded I'll be happy for that, because awards add value to a plant, and I would get some satisfaction out of feeling that I have a good eye for quality in orchids. Nevertheless, I would prefer that it be a plant that I grew (by my own definition of 'growing') because that would give me an additional sense of accomplishment. I would be even happier to know that I grew the plant from seed (or even flask or seedling).

I do feel that some exhibitors at shows are far too oriented towards getting ribbons, trophies and awards for their plants. I sometimes internally question the motivations of such exhibitors, and some behavior I have observed I can only attribute to selfishness. In the interest of harmony, I try to keep such opinions to myself.

Regards,
Rick

Excellent!!!!!:clap: I agree!!!


Ramon

 

[Heather]

I was thinking about this again on the way home from the MOS show tonight and I have to say, while flower quality awards may be very rewarding, I really do feel they are more rewarding for the breeders out there. If I had won a show trophy for flower quality, and had only grown the plant well, honestly, it still wouldn't have been my award, it would have been the breeder's award.

Winning a cultural award (which is what I won (not AOS but still...) felt much more rewarding to me tonight, driving home. I'm really proud of being able to GROW something that some people feel is hard to grow, and growing it WELL.

 

[tocarmar]

Heather,

Congrats again!! I saw your mexi today. Seeing it in person was a very rewarding experience. It now makes me have something to look forward to at next years show, to enter mine.

It was an excellent show I wanted 1 of everything!! lol
I did come home with 2 new ones I bought from Glen (Piping Rock Orchids)

Tom

 

[SlipperFan]

Winning a cultural award (which is what I won (not AOS but still...) felt much more rewarding to me tonight, driving home. I'm really proud of being able to GROW something that some people feel is hard to grow, and growing it WELL.

As well you should! This is not the easiest species to grow, much less that well!