the grand champion of this show, and other shows i have judged, has absolutley nothing to do with AOS or TPS or TOGA or JOGA merit judging scores. best in show typically has to do most with the "WOW factor"
Taiwan International Orchid Show 2010...
- Thread starter Pete
- Start date
Help Support Slippertalk Orchid Forum:
SlipperFan
Addicted
Those flowers certainly have a WOW! factor. As to FCC's and Best of Shows -- IMHO so much is personal preference, competition, and history.
Yoyo_Jo
Catt's Meow
Gorgeous! A+ in my books. :clap::drool:
smartie2000
Well-Known Member
:drool: this plant is so perfect......
J
Jorch
Guest
It's an absolutely stunning orchid!! :drool:
ohio-guy
Well-Known Member
Are jusdging criteria explained some where? Does any one ever get 100, or is 90 something the max?
Yes and No, 100 is never awarded.
i think some of the Phrag. Jason Fischer that were coming out a few years ago were getting in the mid 90's. that is about the highest you ever see. and judging criteria is explained at length in the AOS judging handbook....
I was at the Tainan show actually, a pity we were not introduced
I agree with you about the FCC and the like. To me the AOS judging was for some of a plant a big, sad joke. I must say - and I am not the only one to have complained about that, by far, that most of the AOS judges that were in the Queena hotel did not even return a "good morning" at the breakfast to ANY foreigner, European, Australian, or Asian. A couple were friendly, but that's it, and they were few and far between.
That dianthum got an AM. It is NOT a good one by far, there are plenty better around:
That hangianum x leucochilum did NOT get an award. It was quite a good one:
That really weird stuff got an award:
It was BELOW any quality standard. OK flower maybe, but below. And at any cost less good than the hangianum x leucochilum above. For an AM/AOS it had a distorted pouch laterally compressed with a couple dog teeth on the pouch, plus the petals were not sitting on the dorsal, and so on and so on.
There were a couple of awards in phals for plants that had clearly what we call 'fatal flaws' and anyway nothing special.
Anyway, discussing with a lot of Taiwanese growers, many said that they are no longer interested in getting their plants awarded by the AOS, hence the 300+ plants marked not for AOS awards, and we can expect more next year.
JeanLux
Well-Known Member
Very interesting comments Xavier!!!! Thanks a lot!!!! Jean
Indeed, we have seen dianthums here that were better!!!
Indeed, we have seen dianthums here that were better!!!
yes xavier! too bad we didnt meet up. i thought you were coming to hawaii!? we screened that leucochilum x hangianum because it was ridiculously cuppy. the size and color/pattern was nice and it looks round in photos but when it was in front of you it was just soooo cuppy, or perhaps not open all the way. i was not on the team that award the dianthum, however i also felt that some other judges were giving awards away a bit too easily. I am always very hard and critical of paphs for merit awards, we see a lot of really good paphs here in hawaii so my standards are pretty high...
paphioland
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2006
- Messages
- 1,457
- Reaction score
- 14
obviously I can only see the pic and didn't see the plant in person but I prefer slightly cuppy to flat in "round" flowers. AOS tends to be obsessed with flat. I find flat flowers blah most of the time. Obviously there are exceptions to legthly to get into here. On another note Hawaii is great for growing some types of paphs. Need to come visit someday and maybe meet up.
I have seen better dianthums but that is not a bad one. Three flowers also not bad.
I would prefer judging to be looser than tighter that way I can know as a collector that someone saw something in the plant but then that could be a problem as well.
That's one of the problems usually... For leuco x hangianum, we would not expect a perfectly flat flower. I remember once I found a beautiful adaglossum at the Eric Young. Discussing with Alan Moon, he said it was a fantastic flower, but that most judges - RHS - would not award it because they lacked the knowledge in breeding. That was indeed true in that case. The flowers were not full and flat, but for this breeding, and the ada color that came through, it was an award quality.
Sometimes judges must think about the parentage. Expect a sanderianum primary cross to have a 6.5cm wide dorsal as an example is impossible. for leucochilum x hangianum, we get a cupped charming flower, and that one was really nice in person. The awarded freak wenshanse hybrid was not good, because the breeding should have produced something better first, and second because of the fatal flaws on the pouch.
Yes, that's the 'flat' story. Japanese tended to be the same. I can tell you too that many cattleyas are reworked with a very complicated and sophisticated network of pipes, steel wires, cotton, etc... and I have seen the same for complex paphs at least in two places. They have a complete cosmetic surgery before being displayed, and the artificial 'shaper' is removed prior to judging. I have seen it many, many times. And the plant gets awards most of the time. That's cheating, because no one will ever be able to bloom the plant like when it was awarded, unless we remake the complete wire pipes cotton setup... I prefer cupped and a bit round flowers to something flat and that looks like an artificial flower...
For the dianthum, it was an HCC quality at most, not an AM. There were a couple others that were better in the sales area in fact, with 4 flowers at Shin-Yi...
The main problem being that, when looking at the RHS awards in the 1900's until about the 90's, we can see the meaning of those awards, including historically. Some are still up to date in fact. Paph. Rosario 'New Year' AM/GMM/RHS from the 70's which is Paeony x delenatii has yet to be surpassed. It was a great 70's flower, and with today standard, an AM/AOS at the very least. Pinkish Paeony, with perfect shape...
Nowadays, I see some awarded plants, they are 'cute', but nothing I would really say 'wow, I want it, that's a good one'. And within a couple of years, like for all those FCC armeniacums from the 80's, I would even think, 'wow, what's that piece of crap ???'
I agree with Pete that, whilst some judging teams were fine, quite a lot of the judges here were very lax. Maybe they think this way they will be able to come back next year... Some Taiwanese really though - and I do not mean people who are jealous, but some who even got FCC this time - that some judges made everything to please the Taiwanese in order to be invited again all fees paid next year. I don't know if this is true or not, but for sure, some gave awards like candies.
first of all, leucochilums and hangi's are both flatter than cuppy. and that flower wasnt even close to "slightly cuppy", it was ridiculously cuppy. second of all saying that you think most flat flowers are kind of BLAH sounds dumb.
i think that standards are WAY to low throughout the country with paphs. There are millions being grown and hybridized throughout every state. we need to be constantly raising the bar. i thought that there were several things awarded at this show, and every show for that matter, that were either given way too high a score or shouldnt have been scored at all!
i think that standards are WAY to low throughout the country with paphs. There are millions being grown and hybridized throughout every state. we need to be constantly raising the bar. i thought that there were several things awarded at this show, and every show for that matter, that were either given way too high a score or shouldnt have been scored at all!
ps- xavier.
.. this could not be more true. I hate the politics of judging and its near impossible to avoid. i couldnt care less if i get stuff paid for. a plant should get the score it deserves, whether it belongs to somebody special or somebody youve never heard of or whether your in taiwan, hilo or cinncinatti.
paphioland
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2006
- Messages
- 1,457
- Reaction score
- 14
Yes and I am sure there are many things that deserved higher scores that werent awarded at all.
I did not see the flower so I have no idea. I am not saying it wasn't "too" cuppy
NO I said ROUND paphs. Flat paphs that are supposed to be round are unattractive to many. Look at complexes. That is just true you need some cupping to hold the flower together and keep it tight and round. Good leuco have slight cupping. Having an open complex without a tight synsepal will mean that while you see it, it maybe flat but it will badly recurve at somepoint. The petals at the proximal lower are almost always badly reflexed. Find me a round totally flat complex without recurving. If they exist they are very very very very rare. That being said cupping can be too much obviously. So to say most flat flowers that are supposed to be round are blah doesn't sound dumb at all. Japan is much better than we are at seeing this at the moment, probably because they are much more appreciative of complex paphs.
Xavier is right on, some places groom their flowers in exactly the manner he is talking about which sucks for collectors. That is a big big no no in my mind. It is mostly with Catts but also in paphs as well.
smartie2000
Well-Known Member
Pete is right the paph hangianum x leucochilum is cuppier than it should, look at the ends of the lateral petals, they cup inwards.
But I love the view of the bloom. It could have been acknowledged with a HCC/AOS? I haven't seen any of these in person, though to me it looks better than average. I've prefer this over wavy petals on some.
But I love the view of the bloom. It could have been acknowledged with a HCC/AOS? I haven't seen any of these in person, though to me it looks better than average. I've prefer this over wavy petals on some.
also looking at the wenshan x hangi cross.. i do actually think that is more awardable than the leuco x hangi. to me the petals and cuppyness as i said of the leuco were a fatal flaw, and i wasnt on the team that awarded the wenshan x hangi but i have seen a lot of this cross and this was pretty damn good for the cross. remember it all has to do with what the parents are and what the standards are for that cross. it may not be the best flower ever, but in terms of its parents, and what other wenshan x hangis look like etc, its worth an HCC or low AM
