Tokyo Orchid Nursery Roths

[paphioland]

I wouldn't. I would keep moving forward. Even if it is a little better you will still be behind.

What I mean by this is that the average quality of Machans new crosses must be better than the previous. He does lots of line breeding. If at some point diversity was needed put back into the crosses to make jumps forward again there are much better choices in my opinion. Roths are a huge investment in time and resources to breed. If you want to do it right you prob have to create at least 250-500 plants to know the potential of the cross. That is lots of space for 7-10 yrs. People will say oh I bloom my roths in 4 years. Sure maybe a few of the cross. To get 80% of the cross to bloom and on fully mature plants it takes at least that long.

 

[Paul]

Paphioland, do you think that 4N roths (made from very selected 2N roths like those mentionned in the thread) could produce something new and better in size, shape, colour and vigour, have you info about that?

 

[paphioland]

I don't know.People have achieved great flowers with 2 n and 4n isn't always better. Look at bessea or stonei.The best person to ask would be Xavier. I think his handle here is Roth. he claimed he was colchicine treating roths years back. He claims he did it to a Dazzler cross Lien and I made years ago and he would give me some back but has never occurred.

That being said I have heard or seen no evidence of these roths so I am assuming they are not better or have not bloomed yet.

 

[theorchidzone]

Regarding 4N roths, EYOF apparently made some. They told me that the flowers were not significantly bigger, but that consistently the staminode etc was larger.
The effects of 4N vary by species. We have some schlimii that are almost certainly 4N, but the 4N went to the leaves. Flowers....nothing special. On the other hand we have some besseae that look to be 4N. Much improved, but they are touchy to grow.
Colchicine treating has rather low yield. The newer methods for conversion are much better.
Sometimes we have awesome outlier flowers bloom out, and I wonder with excitement: these could be tetraploid. But actually, this view is illogical. If an extraordinary flower comes up, it is better if it is 2N.
JC

I don't know.People have achieved great flowers with 2 n and 4n isn't always better. Look at bessea or stonei.The best person to ask would be Xavier. I think his handle here is Roth. he claimed he was colchicine treating roths years back. He claims he did it to a Dazzler cross Lien and I made years ago and he would give me some back but has never occurred.

That being said I have heard or seen no evidence of these roths so I am assuming they are not better or have not bloomed yet.

 

[tomkalina]

I agree, JC

 

[paphioland]

I've never seen Machan use 'Tokyo Fantasy' in breeding, what a beautiful plants it is though

Machan also doenst sell all of his crosses until they bloom. Or he sells very limited. Like tarantula x perfection. Unless you got it as a flask or have good relationship with him I don't think he would sell unless you pay lots.

 

[paphioland]

I agree, JC

Ditto

Sometimes polyploid plants are just cool because they are different but not always better. Harder to breed on with them usually too. So easier to use 2n for longterm quality improvement. Although those lowii that Frank made were spectacular and I'm pretty sure those were polyploidy but they aren't very fertile.

 

[Justin]

curious what do you think the total market is for the upper echelon roths...among private growers in the US...maybe 20 at the most? i am not in this market myself with other financial priorities these days and not as much disposable income. also from experience risk averse to the difficulty of establishing roths after they have been divided.

 

[paphioland]

curious what do you think the total market is for the upper echelon roths...among private growers in the US...maybe 20 at the most? i am not in this market myself with other financial priorities these days and not as much disposable income. also from experience risk averse to the difficulty of establishing roths after they have been divided.

Like the upper upper? I know of 3 nonprof growers world wide lol. There are lots more though.

 

[paphioland]

Def not 20 In the U.S. Less. It really depends what you mean by upper eschelon. Like the absurd top quality most of the time. I think less than 5 who don't have a busines stake in orchids in the US. The level below that. Someone who has nice stuff and every once and awhile will spring for something top tier, I think there are many. Prob over 100 In the US and lots in the world. I'm talking just paphs. John chant would prob know the answer to this best. People change their buying practices too based on interest, financial situation. Some people only buy really nice of one type but just nice of other types. I still think that there are less than 5-10 super top tier paph buyers in the US.

 

[theorchidzone]

Hard to answer. Paphioland is more or less correct.
Top tier plants is a moving target also. New top tier plants replace the old top tier if breeding/selection is done correctly.
JC

Def not 20 In the U.S. Less. It really depends what you mean by upper eschelon. Like the absurd top quality most of the time. I think less than 5 who don't have a busines stake in orchids in the US. The level below that. Someone who has nice stuff and every once and awhile will spring for something top tier, I think there are many. Prob over 100 In the US and lots in the world. I'm talking just paphs. John chant would prob know the answer to this best. People change their buying practices too based on interest, financial situation. Some people only buy really nice of one type but just nice of other types. I still think that there are less than 5-10 super top tier paph buyers in the US.

 

[Leo_5313]

All super nice.

 

[AdamD]

I don't know if this was posted yet and don't feel like going back over all the pages

http://www.tokyoorchidnursery.com/paph/#

Link to a page with a pic of Tokyo Fantasy

 

[Fabrice]

Hum, on this link http://www.tokyoorchidnursery.com/2015/02/02/東京オーキット-ナーセリー2015年2月リスト/ Mont Millais, it's NS 30 , DS 6.4 and PW 2.2 with dark color.
Similar measurement than many current awarded roths. Not bad for an old (wild) guy! :rollhappy:

 

[Justin]

yeah mm is still pretty nice

 

[paphioland]

Hum, on this link http://www.tokyoorchidnursery.com/2015/02/02/東京オーキット-ナーセリー2015年2月リスト/ Mont Millais, it's NS 30 , DS 6.4 and PW 2.2 with dark color.
Similar measurement than many current awarded roths. Not bad for an old (wild) guy! :rollhappy:

You still couldn't pull it out of the new generation of Roths. Trust me. Also very few hobbyists can bloom the flower as well as Machan. I am just saying I can get you mm indistinguishable lot cheaper.

 

[Kawarthapine]

Tarantula and Tokyo Fantasy just got added to my bucket list...

...and I thought I had given up paphs for phrags.

I need more growing space.

 

[Cat]

Hmm I need to buy a Tarantula for sure but I also like the color on Raptor. I'm definitely going to want to buy both. A flask preferred.

 

[cattmad]

link to better photo of tarantula with multiple spikes

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/purewater_orchids/15199991.html

 

[cattmad]

check out the awesome bell too