The first is Wossner Black Wings. The dorsal is a little over 6 cm wide and the petals are 18 cm long. I purchased it on ebay in 2014 as a small seedling. I do not have information regarding parents. The second is Booth's Saint-Adductum. The parents are Saint Swithin "Black Rook" x adductum "Black Top" The dorsal is 4.5 cm wide and the petals are 17 cm long. I purchase this from SVO in 2015 as a good size seedling.