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breeindy
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im not certain,only going off what came on the tag.
wardii
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This has been a very interesting discussion indeed. Thanks a lot to all of you for your input!
Well, after I read the first comments here who doubted the identity of this Paph, I did some research and now I'm trying to answer to those with doubts in a strictly arbitrary order.
breeindy's flower has no wardii in it that I can see, I rather see a Maudiae-type hybrid with mastersianum influence.
Rick showed very nicely how close a wardii hybrid can look like the parent species. I would have guessed his Supersuk x wardii # 3 is a straight wardii.
I disagree with sanderianum that wardii is a relatively uniform species. I haven't been to the habitat, but I've seen my share of wardiis at shows and in nurseries. The wardii pitures at Stephen Manzas site demonstrate how diverse this species is (www.slipperorchids.info).
Let's go into detail:
This is another picture of my flower taken in a different light. What remains unusual for me is the lack of green in the flower that Rick mentioned, the shape of the dorsal, and the colour of the dorsal.
This is the centre of the flower. The staminode looks typical wardii to me. Purpuratum has a staminode shield that is much broader than high. Right in the centre the petals are green, that colour is just overlaid by purple further on. If you look at Sam Tsuis web page, for example, he has photos of wardiis that have almost solid red-brown petals. The dusting in the lower part of the dorsal appears to be not so rare in wardii, since I found a few pictures of wardii with these spots by google.
Just the dorsal. I agree it is pretty flat, but from this angle the shape looks wardii-like enough to me. Most wardiis have a smallish, cupped dorsal that gives them a "natural" look. Ricks wardii is a nice example. Many linebred, awarded wardiis have a larger, flat dorsal.
What is most unusual is the veining. This flower has relatively few (16) rather thick veins with a lot of purple in them. Also, the veining is a bit irregular for a wardii. I have to admit that I haven't found a picture that clearly shows dark purple veins in the dorsal the way my flower has them. Gildas plant shown at Stephens site may be a candidate, and a few more I found by google. But, in many cases the pictures were of awful quality or heavily altered, so I simply can't tell.
I think the number of veins and pattern are in the normal range for wardii. Number of veins is usually between 16 and 22 (counted numerous google pictures). The veining can be a bit irregular especially in line-bred flowers as well. Look at these Japanese plants for different veining:
http://images.google.de/imgres?imgu...=paph+wardii&ndsp=20&hl=de&sa=N&start=80&um=1
I already mentioned that I believe my plant to be of Hilmar Bauchs breeding. Here are links to three examples of his Dark Wing strain:
http://digilander.libero.it/uparis/mostre/mporzio2001/mp2001_190.jpg
http://www.tropical-paradise.ch/index.php?id=772
http://www.paphiopedilumworld.de/shop/pic/pages/10060%20p.%20wardii%20%B4Darkwing%B4.htm
All three are pretty similar, and all three have veins in the dorsal which are purple at the base, and to some extend further up. I admit that, despite the colour, the dorsal of all three looks like what I'd expect from wardii.
I emailed the Ebay vendor who sold me the plant but haven't got a reply. The unique substrate the plant is in tells me that he bought the plant from one particular nursery in Western Germany.
I emailed Hilmar as well. He confirmed that two years ago he had sold a batch of wardiis to that nursery. He also identified that plant as one of his, possibly of the F2 generation. He stated that "some of those early ones were pretty red". This comment leaves me a bit uneasy, actually. China Doll comes to mind.
Hilmar says that he got his motherplants about 15 years ago, and he is now at the F4 generation of breeding those. According to him, Kenntner never had any of those wardiis and his plants were not from Kenntner. He obtained the plants from somebody else who is well connected and imports plants frequently. It is unlikely that this source of the plants intended to buy hybrids. But, remember Paph. dixlerianum. One simply can't exclude the chance that someone somewhere "stretched" an order of species with a batch of man-made hybrids.
Last, regarding sanderianums idea of my plant being a purpuratum hybrid.
Well, the hybrid purpuratum x wardii is called Dale Edward Lawless and I found only one picture of it. Sorry for the size:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_y8Q8lCmyg...h/Paph.DaleEdwardLawless.ThreeKings.light.jpg
That one is a purpuratum hybrid: almost solid pouch colour, wide, oval petals almost held horizontal and the typical, reflexed dorsal. I can see very little of that in my flower. Also look at the leaves, tesselation yes but no wardii-snake skin. Mine has a typical wardii-pattern on its leaves. Of course Rick showed how wardii-heavy such a hybrid can be, but I'm still not convinced.
Conclusion: for the time being I'll treat my plant as an unusual wardii but keep you guys concerns in mind. You just can't be 100% sure of what you get.
Best wishes,
Well, after I read the first comments here who doubted the identity of this Paph, I did some research and now I'm trying to answer to those with doubts in a strictly arbitrary order.
breeindy's flower has no wardii in it that I can see, I rather see a Maudiae-type hybrid with mastersianum influence.
Rick showed very nicely how close a wardii hybrid can look like the parent species. I would have guessed his Supersuk x wardii # 3 is a straight wardii.
I disagree with sanderianum that wardii is a relatively uniform species. I haven't been to the habitat, but I've seen my share of wardiis at shows and in nurseries. The wardii pitures at Stephen Manzas site demonstrate how diverse this species is (www.slipperorchids.info).
Let's go into detail:
This is another picture of my flower taken in a different light. What remains unusual for me is the lack of green in the flower that Rick mentioned, the shape of the dorsal, and the colour of the dorsal.
This is the centre of the flower. The staminode looks typical wardii to me. Purpuratum has a staminode shield that is much broader than high. Right in the centre the petals are green, that colour is just overlaid by purple further on. If you look at Sam Tsuis web page, for example, he has photos of wardiis that have almost solid red-brown petals. The dusting in the lower part of the dorsal appears to be not so rare in wardii, since I found a few pictures of wardii with these spots by google.
Just the dorsal. I agree it is pretty flat, but from this angle the shape looks wardii-like enough to me. Most wardiis have a smallish, cupped dorsal that gives them a "natural" look. Ricks wardii is a nice example. Many linebred, awarded wardiis have a larger, flat dorsal.
What is most unusual is the veining. This flower has relatively few (16) rather thick veins with a lot of purple in them. Also, the veining is a bit irregular for a wardii. I have to admit that I haven't found a picture that clearly shows dark purple veins in the dorsal the way my flower has them. Gildas plant shown at Stephens site may be a candidate, and a few more I found by google. But, in many cases the pictures were of awful quality or heavily altered, so I simply can't tell.
I think the number of veins and pattern are in the normal range for wardii. Number of veins is usually between 16 and 22 (counted numerous google pictures). The veining can be a bit irregular especially in line-bred flowers as well. Look at these Japanese plants for different veining:
http://images.google.de/imgres?imgu...=paph+wardii&ndsp=20&hl=de&sa=N&start=80&um=1
I already mentioned that I believe my plant to be of Hilmar Bauchs breeding. Here are links to three examples of his Dark Wing strain:
http://digilander.libero.it/uparis/mostre/mporzio2001/mp2001_190.jpg
http://www.tropical-paradise.ch/index.php?id=772
http://www.paphiopedilumworld.de/shop/pic/pages/10060%20p.%20wardii%20%B4Darkwing%B4.htm
All three are pretty similar, and all three have veins in the dorsal which are purple at the base, and to some extend further up. I admit that, despite the colour, the dorsal of all three looks like what I'd expect from wardii.
I emailed the Ebay vendor who sold me the plant but haven't got a reply. The unique substrate the plant is in tells me that he bought the plant from one particular nursery in Western Germany.
I emailed Hilmar as well. He confirmed that two years ago he had sold a batch of wardiis to that nursery. He also identified that plant as one of his, possibly of the F2 generation. He stated that "some of those early ones were pretty red". This comment leaves me a bit uneasy, actually. China Doll comes to mind.
Hilmar says that he got his motherplants about 15 years ago, and he is now at the F4 generation of breeding those. According to him, Kenntner never had any of those wardiis and his plants were not from Kenntner. He obtained the plants from somebody else who is well connected and imports plants frequently. It is unlikely that this source of the plants intended to buy hybrids. But, remember Paph. dixlerianum. One simply can't exclude the chance that someone somewhere "stretched" an order of species with a batch of man-made hybrids.
Last, regarding sanderianums idea of my plant being a purpuratum hybrid.
Well, the hybrid purpuratum x wardii is called Dale Edward Lawless and I found only one picture of it. Sorry for the size:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_y8Q8lCmyg...h/Paph.DaleEdwardLawless.ThreeKings.light.jpg
That one is a purpuratum hybrid: almost solid pouch colour, wide, oval petals almost held horizontal and the typical, reflexed dorsal. I can see very little of that in my flower. Also look at the leaves, tesselation yes but no wardii-snake skin. Mine has a typical wardii-pattern on its leaves. Of course Rick showed how wardii-heavy such a hybrid can be, but I'm still not convinced.
Conclusion: for the time being I'll treat my plant as an unusual wardii but keep you guys concerns in mind. You just can't be 100% sure of what you get.
Best wishes,
Rick
Well-Known Member
I think that the characters of this flower may be different with different nutrition and potting mix.
Try some additional phosphate and Mg (from epson salts) and see if it reduces red/dark pigment.
How much anthocyanin pigment is in the underside of the leaves?
Try some additional phosphate and Mg (from epson salts) and see if it reduces red/dark pigment.
How much anthocyanin pigment is in the underside of the leaves?
SlipperFan
Addicted
I think you are safe with wardii, Carsten. The photos are indeed similar to yours, and the staminode of the hybrid is very different, IMO.
Good idea, Rick,
I'm going to repot after flowering anyway, and wanted to try the epsom salt for a while now. Need to get some high-P fertilizer, still.
Foliage ist not "darker" than my other wardiis, just the last leaf looks pretty pale (bleached out) which I attribute to the potting mix/fertilizer issue.
Thanks Rick, and thanks Dot,
