When will these green pods be ready

[emydura]

I made these crosses 205 days ago. When would it be safe to send off the pods (green) to the lab for germination? A factor to consider is that most of the development occurred during our cold winter. I believe a green pod can be picked at about 70% of normal development.

Paph helenae x barbigerum var coccineum
Paph charlesworthii x barbigerum var coccineum

Thanks

David

 

[SlipperKing]

I think Ross might be the best source for this info David. You might want to PM him.

 

[fibre]

My coccineum as a pod-parent took one year until its pod was brown and dry!
One of my helenae bears its capsule for 13 month and is drying now!
That's quite a long time.

 

[tocarmar]

paphs are anywhere from 8-12 months and some can go another 3-4 months it depends on species used..

 

[Rick]

I've bred all these species and the above observations are all in the ballpark from mine.

Charlesworthii was the shortest at 10 months

All barbigerum varieties 11-12 months

helenae 14 months

May want to wait at least 8 months before green capping.

 

[Rick]

paphs are anywhere from 8-12 months and some can go another 3-4 months it depends on species used..

Except for multis and parvis (much shorter). I've had lowii and phili's down to as little as 3 months total. But the species we are talking about are in that longer range as you noted.

 

[John Boy]

I'd guess it's safe to say, that as green pods they should both be ready now.

 

[emydura]

Sounds like the charlesworthii x coccineum should be reay first. If I base that cross on a year to maturity, 70% would be 255 days. So I'm still 50 days to go. The other cross may be a little longer.

The pod parents aren't real strong plants so I'm quite keen to get the pods off as soon as practical.

David

 

[emydura]

I was just reading Birk's book who says -

"Species with a normal development time of 12 months may be sown at 6 or 7 months and still produce a high percentage of viable seeds. But seedpods with a normal development time of 12 months begin to lose viability after the 10th or 11th month, and if left on the plant until the pod naturally starts to brown, the seed viability can drop by 50-60%, even more.".

So I think John Boy is right in saying mine are ready to go as they are now 7 months.

I notice most people prefer to use dry seed rather than green pods. Given what Lance Birk says above, what possible advantage could be there in using dry seed? The benefits I see in using green pods are

* Greater seed viability
* Less time you have to wait to send off the pods
* Less stress on the pod parent
* Sterile so not contaminated with fungi and bacteria
* You don't have to worry about the pod unexpectedly splitting and losing all its seed.

It seems the only option to me.

David

 

[Kavanaru]

it depends...
helenae x coccineum = took 8 months to dry and open for me (seedlings already in flasks and healthy)

 

[Leo Schordje]

The advantage of going to dry seed is less chance of spreading virus. If Paphs carry virus, they generally don't show symptoms, so I don't know that this precaution is necessary. In Cattleya and Cymbidiums, one should go to dry seed, because if the pod parent is virused, the sap released when the green pod is cut will infect some percentage of the green-pod seedlings. For non commercial growers, where high yeilds aren't an issue, dry seed makes sure you let the seed pods fully mature.

 

[Rick]

I was just reading Birk's book who says -

"Species with a normal development time of 12 months may be sown at 6 or 7 months and still produce a high percentage of viable seeds. But seedpods with a normal development time of 12 months begin to lose viability after the 10th or 11th month, and if left on the plant until the pod naturally starts to brown, the seed viability can drop by 50-60%, even more.".

So I think John Boy is right in saying mine are ready to go as they are now 7 months.

I notice most people prefer to use dry seed rather than green pods. Given what Lance Birk says above, what possible advantage could be there in using dry seed? The benefits I see in using green pods are

* Greater seed viability
* Less time you have to wait to send off the pods
* Less stress on the pod parent
* Sterile so not contaminated with fungi and bacteria
* You don't have to worry about the pod unexpectedly splitting and losing all its seed.

It seems the only option to me.


David

What is your goal David? Maximum commercial production/profits or curiosity?

If this is hobby fun and you tend toward "hoarding" then you don't have to worry about fast time frames and maximum seed count viability. Even with a small amount of viable seed you will end up with plenty of seedlings to play with and the 3-4 months extra time waiting for seed won't make a difference.

If you are running a business 3-4 months electric bills, overhead, .......seedlings/square ft of grow out bench space....... then greencap.

Since I'm non commercial and have TM do my flasking, the only time I worry about this is if the pod parent is sick and may not make it to full term. Or the seed may need harvesting during holiday when I might miss the split or weather will be too cold to ship seed.

 

[emydura]

What is your goal David? Maximum commercial production/profits or curiosity?

If this is hobby fun and you tend toward "hoarding" then you don't have to worry about fast time frames and maximum seed count viability. Even with a small amount of viable seed you will end up with plenty of seedlings to play with and the 3-4 months extra time waiting for seed won't make a difference.

If you are running a business 3-4 months electric bills, overhead, .......seedlings/square ft of grow out bench space....... then greencap.

Since I'm non commercial and have TM do my flasking, the only time I worry about this is if the pod parent is sick and may not make it to full term. Or the seed may need harvesting during holiday when I might miss the split or weather will be too cold to ship seed.

For me it is just to get a couple of flasks. But I don't think that makes a difference. My two pod plants are small plants so I don't want to stress them out. It is spring now. They should be growing rather than needlessly investing large amounts of energy into maturing pods.

Plus it would be good not to have to check the pods everyday for signs they are about to split. I was speaking to a guy in our orchid society who uses dry seed. He said he has lost so many pods where they "spilled there guts" so quickly it was too late when he realised. What a waste of time and effort.

One thing I didn't mention above it is more expensive to use dry seed than green pods due to the extra step of sterilising.

I can send them off now or wait 3 or 4 months. Why wait?

David

 

[Rick]

I can send them off now or wait 3 or 4 months. Why wait?

David

Exactly, so go for it.

For me paph pods have always been slow gradual openers, so I can't recall every losing paph seed to a sudden split. Paphs and bulbos are something else altogether.

Also TM prefers dry seed, and doesn't charge anything for species seed, so for me its a no brainer to wait till pods split.

 

[emydura]

After all that, I spoke to the orchid laboratory today and he said he is just about to go overseas for 3 weeks and it would be good if I could send him the pods on his return. Hopefully they should be still green by then.

He also didn't agree with Lance Birk's assertion that pods lose viability as they approach maturity.

David

 

[SlipperKing]

I don't agree with Birk's assertion either David. Now I could see a dormancy setting in simular to cyps

 

[Howzat]

After all that, I spoke to the orchid laboratory today and he said he is just about to go overseas for 3 weeks and it would be good if I could send him the pods on his return. Hopefully they should be still green by then.

He also didn't agree with Lance Birk's assertion that pods lose viability as they approach maturity.

David

David, which Lab are you sending your pods to??
Prior to being closed down I used the South Pacific Lab in NZ. But in the last few year I send to FloraLab.

 

[emydura]

David, which Lab are you sending your pods to??
Prior to being closed down I used the South Pacific Lab in NZ. But in the last few year I send to FloraLab.

Sorry Howard. I never saw this post. I actually sent the pods off today. I sent them to Western Orchids/Laboratories in South Australia. I was told they were pretty good. I guess I will find out.

The pods were 250 days old exactly. So hopefully they were old enough. Fingers crossed.

 

[fibre]

Fingers crossed!

 

[emydura]

Looks like I may have timed it well. Kevin from the lab said the seed looked perfect - just starting to turn brown which is what you want. No guarantees though.

Here are some photos of the parents involved. Helenae and charlesworthii are the pod parents. The pollen came from the dark red coccineum in the front. A big thanks to Chris (Fibre) for sending me the pollen. So this is a Slippertalk collaboration.

Here are some Paphiopedilum barbigerum var. coccineum. They are growing together in a 2.4 inch pot (6 cm).