Bud watch; sandie

[troy]

Ants pollinate sanderianum

 

[emydura]

Ants pollinate sanderianum

I believe the flowers are pollinated by hover flies. Ants make no sense as the petals hang over cliffs so ants would have no access to the petals.

 

[troy]

Sandys grow on sarawak islands and one of the pollinaterd are ants, right lance, for anyone to say thats not true, would send the gentleman that told me the pollinators into a laughing frenzy, beiing he wrote some of the literature that says that, he has been there, to the sarawak islands, I thought that everybody knew the pollinaters of sandy are ants, just a known thing, guess not

 

[gonewild]

I believe the flowers are pollinated by hover flies. Ants make no sense as the petals hang over cliffs so ants would have no access to the petals.

Actually the long petals would give access to ants. The wind would blow the petals back toward the cliff and are long enough to reach the rock or other plants where ants may be. The sugars on the petals could cause the ants to follow up to the pollination zone. Don't forget that in the tropics ants can be very large and easily could transport pollen.

I'm not saying ants are the pollinators but the petals do give access to ants.
There is published research on sanderianum but I have no clue what it says.

 

[JAB]

I stand to be corrected, but I don't think there is anything published on sanderianum pollinators. One would think the petals facilitate some critter crawling up, but my conversations with Prof. Braem he has stated that this has never been documented, and made the point that the petals do not always reach the ground/touch anything. That would completely negate pollination. Good point Lance re: the wind blowing the petals towards a surface though.

If there is a paper(s) out there please share as I would love to read it.

Cheers
Jake

 

[gonewild]

If there is a paper(s) out there please share as I would love to read it.

Cheers
Jake

Look for this:

"The unique pollination mechanisms of Paphiopedilum sanderianum (Rchb. f) Stein [1990]
Kramer, R.D."

 

[emydura]

Look for this:

"The unique pollination mechanisms of Paphiopedilum sanderianum (Rchb. f) Stein [1990]
Kramer, R.D."

Have you read this Lance?

This recent article on Slipper Orchid pollinators doesn't mention ants at all as pollinators. Bees and flies are the pollinators of the 42 species of slipper orchids mentioned. Hover flies pollinated all but one of the Paphiopedilum species. Sanderianum isn't mentioned though as I'm not sure this has been determined. The hypothesis I have read has been that the long petals glimmer in the sunlight thereby attracting the hover flies. Interestingly Phrag caudatum which by convergent evolution have similar length petals to sanderianum are pollinated by hover flies. The article also says that the hover flies are attracted to the honey dew.

Given all slipper orchid species documented so far are pollinated by either flies or bees I'm not sure why sanderianum would be any different.

http://www.lankesteriana.org/Lankes..._Pemberton_pollination_of_slipper_orchids.pdf


Troy says 'everyone knows that sanderianum is pollinated by ants'. I couldn't find anything supporting this but then I didn't look hard. Maybe you can point some literature out to me Troy. As a general rule ants haven't been found to be significant pollinators of flowers. In fact secretions from glands on ant bodies of some ant species generally reduce pollen viability. Ants are also unspecialised insects that cannot fly or travel large distances. They don't seem to be suitable pollinators of sanderianum at all. So an ant climbs up those long petals, climbs into the flower and then gets some pollen on their backs. How do they then get to the flower 15 metres away down the cliff? It doesn't seem like an efficient pollinating strategy. If there is one species of Paph that would require a flying pollinator it would be sanderianum.

From the paper above it is pretty clear there is a specialised evolved relationship between the pollinator and the slipper orchid species. I believe the pollinator of sanderianum would have to be far more specialised than an ant. But I'm happy to be corrected on this.

http://www.ableweb.org/volumes/vol-22/12-puterbaugh.pdf

 

[SlipperKing]

I too have to agree, no way under God's green acres are ants the pollinators. If this was the case, these plants would be covered with ants all the time. As in nests around the root system, crawling all through the leaves, up the flower stems. They wouldn't need long petaled latters.
I've also seen sugar crystals form on my philippinese flowers and there is no mention of ants associated with these plants either.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[troy]

Everybody is entitled to beleive and defend what they beleive with blood is what we do as humans, I was told ants by a gentelman that I respect, he is no longer with us, so I'm going to beleive that, it's likely there are multiple pollinaters

 

[gonewild]

No I have not read the article. I could not find a download link. I referenced it based on the title that suggests that it is about sanderianum pollination. Based on the title one would assume that sanderianum has an unusual and different method of being pollinated.

I dont know what sandi pollinators are. I only commented that the petals can in fact make an easy access for ants. I have read that certain orchids have spots that mimic aphids on their petals to attract ants as pollinators so long ladder like petals could make sense in that regard. Also there is at least one species of Paph that self pollinates by liquidfication of the pollen and does not use insects for fertilization. So now new observations are showing that Hoverflies may be an obvious visitor but may not be the pollinator after all.
Just making possible suggestions as to how ants may pollinate by simply walking over liquified pollen and transporting in on their feet. Maybe Troy can share published facts to reinforce his statements, he may be correct.

 

[troy]

Howard gunn told me, he went over and saw it in the sarawak islands, I'll ask joan gunn his wife for written info

 

[gonewild]

In reference to the similarities between Paph sanderianium and Phrag caudatum and the similar long petals. I have not had the pleasure to see sanderianum growing in the wild but I have seen a lot of caudatums. Sometimes caudatum actually grow hanging on vertical cliffs but the vast majority grow in association with tall grass and other plants. Their petals easily get mixed between blades of grass to such an extent it is not easy to photograph the flowers. And the roots are very often infested with ants (they bite if you mess in the roots). In the tropics there are ants everywhere and thousands of species of ants. There are ant species that have only a few individuals in small colonies and no one knows what they do or don't do. So lack of data of ants living in association with sanderianum is not an indication that ants are not pollinators.

I does seem like long hanging petals are an extreme amount of growth (wasted energy) if the intent is to attract a Hoverfly from above. And it does seem like long petals are very well designed to be ladders, especially the spiral staircase ones. :wink:
(are Hoverflies attracted to the nectar drops? Ants are for sure).
(interesting thread hijack)

 

[troy]

If I was a plant, I would employ ants as a bodyguard haha... sorry rick, if this goes further, I or somebody else will start a new thread, very beautiful plant you have whether it's pure or not

 

[gonewild]

Technically we are still "bud watching". Just waiting to see what pollinates the flower. oke:
If we keep watching we will probably observe that the main pollinators of sanderianum are humans now, evolution in progress. In order to get pollinated by a human the plant needs to have longer petals than it's siblings.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00606-005-0391-8
Basically this link proves that ants can and do pollinate orchids that were believed to be dependent on hoverflies.

 

[JAB]

Thanks for the link Lance. I am trying to find that paper, but am running into walls. Will ask on FB.
I don't dispute the theories posed, but a theory is just a theory until proven (or disproven). Unfortunately (or fortunately) in our society without published, scrutinized data based on scientific evidence, our theories are only as good as the interweb pages we type on.
It makes sense like Troy and Lance stated that SOMETHING would be crawling up the petals, otherwise why do to all that effort. That said... nature is far wiser than any of us, it is up to us to discover the truth. Mother nature is indifferent if we understand her ways

Great topic guys!

 

[Clark]

Ants do not need petals to get to the flower.

 

[gonewild]

Thanks for the link Lance. I am trying to find that paper, but am running into walls. Will ask on FB.
I don't dispute the theories posed, but a theory is just a theory until proven (or disproven). Unfortunately (or fortunately) in our society without published, scrutinized data based on scientific evidence, our theories are only as good as the interweb pages we type on.
It makes sense like Troy and Lance stated that SOMETHING would be crawling up the petals, otherwise why do to all that effort. That said... nature is far wiser than any of us, it is up to us to discover the truth. Mother nature is indifferent if we understand her ways

Great topic guys!

All theories is correct.
It will be interesting if Troy can find something written by Howard Gunn.
I assume it is only theory that hoverflies are the sanderianum pollinators as well. To discount Troys ant pollinator claim one needs to offer proof he is wrong. Of course there will be no published proof that ants aren't. :rollhappy:

 

[gonewild]

Ants do not need petals to get to the flower.

No, but 8 petals hanging down to the ants gives the plants an 800% better chance than the flower stem alone.
And the petals may have a short range scent on them that invite the ants to climb.

 

[emydura]

I does seem like long hanging petals are an extreme amount of growth (wasted energy) if the intent is to attract a Hoverfly from above. And it does seem like long petals are very well designed to be ladders, especially the spiral staircase ones. :wink:
(are Hoverflies attracted to the nectar drops? Ants are for sure).
(interesting thread hijack)

This paper discusses hoverflies attraction to the nectar drops at the bottom of page 68. It also talks about the Paphs flowers mimicking aphid colonies to attract the hover flies.

Given this paper reviews all the published literature on slipper orchid pollination (in 2013), it is interesting as to why that paper you mentioned on sanderianum is not included (given that paper was published in 1994). There may not be much in it.

http://www.lankesteriana.org/Lankes..._Pemberton_pollination_of_slipper_orchids.pdf

The difference between sanderianum and other Paphs is there flowers hang over cliffs and hence can be seen from a distance. Other Paphs are more on the bottom floor hidden by trees, shrubs, rocks etc. So sanderianum would benefit from flowers that have a real visual cue. Petals that shimmer in the light would draw hover flies in and lead them up to the flower. They would be drawn up by the shimmering ladder. It doesn't appeared to have been proved yet but that is my hypothesis.

 

[gonewild]

The difference between sanderianum and other Paphs is there flowers hang over cliffs and hence can be seen from a distance. Other Paphs are more on the bottom floor hidden by trees, shrubs, rocks etc. So sanderianum would benefit from flowers that have a real visual cue. Petals that shimmer in the light would draw hover flies in and lead them up to the flower. They would be drawn up by the shimmering ladder. It doesn't appeared to have been proved yet but that is my hypothesis.

And that makes perfect sense to me also. However it does not preclude ants from also being pollinators. Need to find that missing paper on sanderianum to learn what the authors thought was unique.