Early K-lite results

[Ray]

First, let me comment that my understanding of the low-K concept relates to avoiding a long-term problem, not the enhancement of any type of growth.

The fact that those commercial growers don't use Low-K regimens or even add K doesn't mean that that is the reason the example plants ended up the way they were. There is a great deal more going on than the nutritional part. In fact, I have pretty much concluded that, unless you're trying to "push" your plants for sales, that it is one of the least important aspects of orchid culture.

The compot looks typical of a compot: a bunch of little seedlings get established and then BOOM, the growth begins at a greater rate due to the overall vigor of the plants. I've seen that in compots that were not fed at all.

I think it's a great idea to remain skeptical until things prove themselves out - one way or another. "Buying in" or "writing off" something without giving it a try is often a mistake.

 

[cnycharles]

there is something to be said about growing plants in the perfect climate.... people growing under lights and windowsills have a very different situation than someone using a shadehouse in hawaii where those island breezes are moving all the time; heck i'd be smiling to beat all if I were laying underneath a shadecloth in hawaii, no matter what someone was feeding me!

it's true that plant nutrition is all about balances. since there are lots of people who grow well and use all sorts of fertilizers, fitting things together properly for the overall conditions is very important. some do it by accident, some by trial and error and observation

 

[gonewild]

"don't believe everything you hear/read "

OK, after reading the K-lite articles several times I noticed a few things. First and foremost, to my understanding there were too many different variables- adding dolomite, epsom salts, well water(more calcium), and bone meal, along with using K-lite made drastic improvements, so realistically you can not give credit to K-lite for those improvements.

You miss the point. All of those additional variables have been used and tried for years in combo with standard fertilizer (msu) without widespread dramatic growth improvement. The point you overlook is that all of them are giving dramatic results only when combined with K-lite.

I looked up potassium toxicity and poisoning in orchids, and found nothing conclusive other than references to the AOS article and posts on slippertalk(or references from other sites referring to ST).

You probably fund nothing at all rather than nothing conclusive, because no one in the past studied the concept.

I am no scientist so I decided to talk to 3 of the best commercial growers in Hawaii. All of them are using an 'MSU' type fert at slightly different dilutions ranging from 150 ppm down to 50 ppm.

They don't agree with each other even on the strength to use MSU?

They grow all types of orchids, including paphs and phrags and without question have some of the best looking, healthiest orchids I have ever seen.

Do they grow in less than ideal conditions like most orchid collectors/ Artificial lights. small greenhouses, windowsill, ect? Or do they have big airy nurseries in perfect natural conditions?

When I mentioned low K one said don't believe everything you hear/read

Take his advice and don't believe everything you hear....including the advice you heard from him.

and the other 2 laughed at me.

Take the advice from the first one and ignore anyone that laughs at a new idea. oke:

Not only do they not believe in potassium toxicity they ADD substancial amounts of potassium to thier fert regularly, and have for years!

As do and have done most commercial growers. That just does not mean they are growing the best possible plants.

I think that the real key to success with ANY type of fert is getting the proportions and Ph right. The formulation of Potassium nitrate they are adding is 13.7 - 0 - 46.3, adding it to a 15 - 5 - 15, at the low end 20%. So now I am adding my K-lite 50/50 with the 13.7-0-46.3. The key, as it was explained to me, is that the use of epsom salts, dolomite, and calicum nitrate in the proper proportions and timing will effectively adjust the Ph to the proper range and your plants will uptake the nutrients they need in the proper amounts.

This is not a secret that was never tried before. The ratio you are creating is designed to grow plants as fast as possible and it works well. But it does not solve the long term health problems that arise when plants are grown in less than perfect conditions. K-lite is showing to resolve the health issues.

Two biologists and one farmer with almost 100 years combined experience between them, with over 500 registered hybrids, over 100 AOS awards, growing the BEST plants I have EVER seen must know something.

They are good salesmen also. Ask the one why he only applies 50ppm and ask the other why he applies 150ppm and see what they say. Then tell one of them that the other one said they did not know how to fertilize orchids and I bet that guy will say the other one does not know anything.

Only one out of three gave you the correct advice and you should listen to him.... "Don't listen to everything you hear/read". Try it yourself and learn if you want to become a better grower.

I will be going to the nurseries where the extra potassium programs are in place and posting pictures over the next few weeks.

Love to see pictures!
Sneak out back and take some pictures of their compost piles too. oke:

 

[Rick]

OK, after reading the K-lite articles several times I noticed a few things. First and foremost, to my understanding there were too many different variables- adding dolomite, epsom salts, well water(more calcium), and bone meal, along with using K-lite made drastic improvements, so realistically you can not give credit to K-lite for those improvements. I looked up potassium toxicity and poisoning in orchids, and found nothing conclusive other than references to the AOS article and posts on slippertalk(or references from other sites referring to ST). I am no scientist so I decided to talk to 3 of the best commercial growers in Hawaii. All of them are using an 'MSU' type fert at slightly different dilutions ranging from 150 ppm down to 50 ppm. They grow all types of orchids, including paphs and phrags and without question have some of the best looking, healthiest orchids I have ever seen. When I mentioned low K one said don't believe everything you hear/read and the other 2 laughed at me. Not only do they not believe in potassium toxicity they ADD substancial amounts of potassium to thier fert regularly, and have for years! I think that the real key to success with ANY type of fert is getting the proportions and Ph right. The formulation of Potassium nitrate they are adding is 13.7 - 0 - 46.3, adding it to a 15 - 5 - 15, at the low end 20%. So now I am adding my K-lite 50/50 with the 13.7-0-46.3. The key, as it was explained to me, is that the use of epsom salts, dolomite, and calicum nitrate in the proper proportions and timing will effectively adjust the Ph to the proper range and your plants will uptake the nutrients they need in the proper amounts. Two biologists and one farmer with almost 100 years combined experience between them, with over 500 registered hybrids, over 100 AOS awards, growing the BEST plants I have EVER seen must know something. I will be going to the nurseries where the extra potassium programs are in place and posting pictures over the next few weeks.

You are like all of us succumbing to the science of what created MSU in the first place. Focusing on the exceptional successes rather than the failures.

I'm no exception to this trend and used MSU religously for 8+ years, and also had (still have) a handful of exceptional individuals. Also I have seen over the years lots of successes that didn't involve high K fertilizing, and probably the most "success" is review of plants growing in the jungle with virtually no K available. Growers gravitate towards success and want to emulate that success. But we usually forget all the failures in the process, and we tend to create growing systems/conditions by which we perpetuate success in a very narrow range of species and hybrids that adapt to what we offer instead of adapting to the plants needs.

I here/heard it all the time on this forum and many others. "I can't grow..." "I can only grow adults of this.... but not from seedling." "You aren't a real grower until you've killed your weight in plants". I've heard it all for years, and got the same old answers/excuses about pot management, bad genetics, just a tough species so give up, and needs mycorrhizae. And in the meantime we justify the use of unnatural growing methods by pointing to the handful of exceptional successes.

So I'd be the first to aggree that there's more than one way to grow an orchid, I was just offering an alternative to the same old way of doing things to that weren't fixing the failures. Those successful growers are more than welcome to continue to use what works for them. Many more than myself are laughing when we see our own turnarounds and successes by not useing their methods.

 

[DavidCampen]

plants growing in the jungle with virtually no K available.

That statement is wrong. There is plenty of potassium available to plants growing in the jungle.

 

[eteson]

That statement is wrong. There is plenty of potassium available to plants growing in the jungle.

Hi David, could you explain where?

 

[DavidCampen]

Hi David, could you explain where?

The same place the nitrogen, calcium etc. come from - decaying plant material.

http://www.onlineresearchjournals.org/JPESR/pdf/2012/may/Ndakara.pdf
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2989/20702620.2011.639506#preview
http://www.zoo.cam.ac.uk/zoostaff/foster/PDFs/Turner_et_al_2007_JTropEcol.pdf
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101921872713

 

[gonewild]

That statement is wrong. There is plenty of potassium available to plants growing in the jungle.

How much is "plenty"?
Do orchids grow in a spot where there is a high level (excess) of potassium?

btw.... what is a jungle? (serious ?)

 

[gonewild]

The same place the nitrogen, calcium etc. come from - decaying plant material.

http://www.onlineresearchjournals.org/JPESR/pdf/2012/may/Ndakara.pdf
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2989/20702620.2011.639506#preview
http://www.zoo.cam.ac.uk/zoostaff/foster/PDFs/Turner_et_al_2007_JTropEcol.pdf
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101921872713

What about the orchids that grow above the decaying plant material?

 

[eteson]

The same place the nitrogen, calcium etc. come from - decaying plant material.

http://www.onlineresearchjournals.org/JPESR/pdf/2012/may/Ndakara.pdf
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2989/20702620.2011.639506#preview
http://www.zoo.cam.ac.uk/zoostaff/foster/PDFs/Turner_et_al_2007_JTropEcol.pdf
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101921872713

Hi david, Many thanks for the articles. Seem to me a very interesting readings.
I have to read it in detail before having a formed opinion but the steamflow really seems to be "plenty" of K.

 

[DavidCampen]

How much is "plenty"?
Do orchids grow in a spot where there is a high level (excess) of potassium?

Tell me what Rick means when he says that there is "virtually no K available" and then I will tell you how much is "plenty".

btw.... what is a jungle? (serious ?)

I was quoting Rick so you should ask him.

 

[DavidCampen]

What about the orchids that grow above the decaying plant material?

Orchids growing floating above the forest canopy? I have never heard of that.

 

[gonewild]

The same place the nitrogen, calcium etc. come from - decaying plant material.

What you need to realize is where orchids actually grow. Not many species are terrestrial in dense forests of large trees. Leaf litter samples are going to have higher nutrient levels than exists in the canopy where most "jungle" orchids locate.
The greatest majority of orchid species are not in the "jungle" they grow in more open areas.....Why?
If you want to use these studies to prove that orchids like "plenty" of potassium then answer the question why more orchids in the "jungle" grow in the canopy as opposed to on the ground. If they liked plenty of potassium wouldn't they grow on the ground? Perhaps they are climbing the trees to escape the high potassium levels in the leaf litter?

http://www.onlineresearchjournals.org/JPESR/pdf/2012/may/Ndakara.pdf

Study was done in an artificial avacado grove. Conditions are not natural. The species is an exotic non native plant without the possibility of a "natural" orchid environment.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2989/20702620.2011.639506#preview

Study done in an EXOTIC Eucalyptus grove under commercial production. Not a natural environment and likely no orchid species survive there.

http://www.zoo.cam.ac.uk/zoostaff/foster/PDFs/Turner_et_al_2007_JTropEcol.pdf

If an orchid grows below a birds nest fern near ground level it will have more K available than if it grew above the fern.. This study shows that K leaches down from the canopy but goes no where to indicate what plants benefit from the higher K level below the fern.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101921872713

Study done on large trees to determine the nutrient level carried down by heavy rain compared to normal rain. This mineral release affects the tree itself and it's undergrowth. But if there are orchids in this study sphere they probably grow above the study zone in the canopy,.... above the higher K zone.

 

[DavidCampen]

The same place the nitrogen, calcium etc. come from - decaying plant material.

What you need to realize is where orchids actually grow. Not many species are terrestrial in dense forests of large trees. Leaf litter samples are going to have higher nutrient levels than exists in the canopy where most "jungle" orchids locate.
The greatest majority of orchid species are not in the "jungle" they grow in more open areas.....Why?
If you want to use these studies to prove that orchids like "plenty" of potassium then answer the question why more orchids in the "jungle" grow in the canopy as opposed to on the ground. If they liked plenty of potassium wouldn't they grow on the ground? Perhaps they are climbing the trees to escape the high potassium levels in the leaf litter?

I was talking about nutrient flux in the trees. Look up the terms stemflow and throughflow.

Study was done in an artificial avacado grove. Conditions are not natural. The species is an exotic non native plant without the possibility of a "natural" orchid environment.

Study done in an EXOTIC Eucalyptus grove under commercial production. Not a natural environment and likely no orchid species survive there.

If an orchid grows below a birds nest fern near ground level it will have more K available than if it grew above the fern.. This study shows that K leaches down from the canopy but goes no where to indicate what plants benefit from the higher K level below the fern.

Study done on large trees to determine the nutrient level carried down by heavy rain compared to normal rain. This mineral release affects the tree itself and it's undergrowth. But if there are orchids in this study sphere they probably grow above the study zone in the canopy,.... above the higher K zone.

OK, show me the references that show that there is "virtually no K available".

If an orchid grows below a birds nest fern near ground level it will have more K available than if it grew above the fern.. This study shows that K leaches down from the canopy but goes no where to indicate what plants benefit from the higher K level below the fern.

Actually, it showed values both above and below.

But if there are orchids in this study sphere they probably grow above the study zone in the canopy

I still would like to know what orchids grow floating above the canopy.

 

[gonewild]

Orchids growing floating above the forest canopy? I have never heard of that.

You have never seen orchids growing in the wild. They certainly grow above most of the decaying vegetation.

All the downfall and throughfall studies look at what accumulates below the canopy. Orchids that grow in the canopy do not benefit from what hits the ground.

How many orchid species grow on the ground in the litter at the base of a large tree?

 

[gonewild]

Tell me what Rick means when he says that there is "virtually no K available" and then I will tell you how much is "plenty".


I was quoting Rick so you should ask him.

I was interested to know what you imagine a jungle to be not what Rick means.

Is there a difference between a forest and a jungle?

 

[DavidCampen]

I was interested to know what you imagine a jungle to be not what Rick means.

Is there a difference between a forest and a jungle?

I will let you play word games with yourself, enjoy.

 

[limuhead]

Ok, I am glad to see posts about this subject, pro and con are valid in my opinion. The point I would like to make is this: You can use just about anything in the right proportions providing you do the following; eliminate excess salts, adjust Ph properly, provide air to the roots. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing. There is also such a thing as not enough of a good thing. Balance is the key. I have used Miricle Grow with great success. I have had plants that did great mounted on tree with little more than tap water. I jumped on the band wagon and spent some money as an experiment. After seeing the results of going in pretty much the opposite direction, for many years, not a one or two year experiment I am skeptical about a new product. Notice I said skeptical, not opposed to, against, or anything negative. Time will tell, and that is the only real, hard evidence...

 

[gonewild]

I was talking about nutrient flux in the trees.

What does the nutrient flux have to do with the amount of K orchids grow better with? Are you trying to show that K exists in the growing environment?

Look up the terms stemflow and throughflow.

:rollhappy:

OK, show me the references that show that there is "virtually no K available".

They are not my references, I did cite use them. Personally I don't think any of the nutrient tests that have been done answer the question one way or the other. The answer is in the results of the K-lite grower tests.

 

[gonewild]

I will let you play word games with yourself, enjoy.

Chicken?