Early K-lite results

[Erythrone]

Algae is 89.5% Phosphorous.

Are you sure of this, Lance?

 

[gonewild]

Are you sure of this, Lance?

That's what I read in several different studies. I'm sure it must vary from specie to specie.
But for the subject of this thread after seeing the pictures it does not look like Renee has much algae growing in her pots.

 

[gonewild]

Renee the pictures help a lot. I was hoping to see some pictures of the entire plant that shows the new growth as well as the old.
It is hard to get a feeling of the extent of the leaf drop only seeing the single leaves. Can you also post full plant pictures?

Your Hoya leaves definitely show deficiencies.

I recall that you are using the same rate of K-lite as you were MSU but I don't remember hearing what that rate is. Can you please tell again what strength you are mixing your fertilizer mix and how often yo apply it?

You may simply need to increase the amount of fertilizer you are applying.

 

[gonewild]

Is this what you are describing as yellow color changing to red?

 

[Ray]

I don't think the CEC of orchid media has a lot of influence on the plants. There is so little root surface in contact with media that the actual capacity held in the media is not going to be accessible to the orchid plants. For CE to happen roots must contact soil and orchid root structures just don't have that much capacity.
That is why we rely on frequent liquid fertilizer applications.

On the other hand the media may trap nutrients by it's CEC and keep them away from the orchids.
That is why we rely on frequent liquid fertilizer applications.

Lance - first, thanks for posting that link.

Not only may the medium trap nutrients and (the favorite word in the country at the moment) sequester them, but to Rick's point about K - it may concentrate them to the point of becoming toxic.

 

[rcb]

I recall that you are using the same rate of K-lite as you were MSU but I don't remember hearing what that rate is. Can you please tell again what strength you are mixing your fertilizer mix and how often yo apply it?

You may simply need to increase the amount of fertilizer you are applying.

I'm at 100ppm N, applying twice a week during the growth season.

I will get you more pics, but not until late today - kid playing doubleheader here soon. Plus it's Ctsm repotting day.

And yes, but it actually starts red, then goes to yellow. Weird but it runs from the base of the leaf out. Usually a leaf dies off apex down, but I've got it going backwards here. And something else I thought about this morning. Two exceptions in the Catts, that bloomed but didn't show leaf drop are both Catts that bloom on partially matured p'bulbs. So I rarely get a big flush of blooms, but a spike here, a spike later and so on. And these are the only two Catts that bloom that way for me.

 

[Ray]

The red edges on the hoya definitely shows K deficiency, but I wonder about the overall level of feeding.

2x/week at 100 ppm may sound reasonable, but if you factor in 3 or 4 additional days where they are being flushed - probably pretty thoroughly - with rainwater, I really have to wonder how much overall nutrition the plants are getting?

 

[gonewild]

The red edges on the hoya definitely shows K deficiency, but I wonder about the overall level of feeding.

2x/week at 100 ppm may sound reasonable, but if you factor in 3 or 4 additional days where they are being flushed - probably pretty thoroughly - with rainwater, I really have to wonder how much overall nutrition the plants are getting?

That is exactly were I was heading Ray.
I think the amount of water between fertilizing is flushing out all the nutrients. During the growth season I would be applying 100ppm with every irrigation. And in reality I would want the rainwater to be included.

Assume Renee applies fertilizer twice during the week but it rains every afternoon. How much nutrition did the plants actually get? Maybe none.

 

[rcb]

Ray understand, but that fertilizing regime worked for MSU.

I guess there has been a lot iver the last day on why, but I also want to talk about how to fix it.

So I'm going to get some bone meal for the potted ones. Is there any possible negatives I should look for?

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to fertilize more frequently, I can increase the concentration tho.

And another option is to go back to MSU. I would rather not do that, as I have seen benefits with the K lite, but it is an option.

 

[rcb]

That is exactly were I was heading Ray.
I think the amount of water between fertilizing is flushing out all the nutrients. During the growth season I would be applying 100ppm with every irrigation. And in reality I would want the rainwater to be included.

Assume Renee applies fertilizer twice during the week but it rains every afternoon. How much nutrition did the plants actually get? Maybe none.

It doesn't rain every afternoon, a couple times a week usually, sometimes more as much as 4 times a week.. And I tend to fertilize on non raining days, although it does happen a rain storm will happen after I fertilize. Murphy's law you know.

But again that is not any different from when I used MSU.

So would it be correct to say that due to my conditions, I need a higher level of P?, of all? Nutrients?

 

[gonewild]

Lance - first, thanks for posting that link.

Not only may the medium trap nutrients and (the favorite word in the country at the moment) sequester them, but to Rick's point about K - it may concentrate them to the point of becoming toxic.

Yes. And the "toxic" concept of the media is demonstrated by the increase in roots people are reporting using K-lite. It is not that K-lite is growing more roots it is that the CEC bound nutrients during the old fertilizer regime were inhibiting root growth.

 

[keithrs]

How do you apply fert? Injector/proportioner? Mister? Water breaker? Mix in tank?

Have you tested the irrigation water with a pH/PPM meter? If so, what readings are you getting?

 

[rcb]

How do you apply fert? Injector/proportioner? Mister? Water breaker? Mix in tank?

Have you tested the irrigation water with a pH/PPM meter? If so, what readings are you getting?

I make the concentrate, make sure it's totally dissolved, add in my 20l sprayer and add the water. When I fertilizer I totally saturate. I start at one end, go all through them, and then do a second time. I do not water first.

I have not tested pH myself in a while. When I first switched to MSU RO I did use strips to test. It came in low 6ish over about a month.

Since then I just call the water department every few months to see where the pH is coming in. When I use rain water I have no idea what it is.

I have never tested TDS.

 

[gonewild]

It doesn't rain every afternoon, a couple times a week. And I tend to fertilize on non raining days, although it does happen a rain storm will happen after I fertilize. Murphy's law you know.

But again that is not any different from when I used MSU.

So would it be correct to say that due to my conditions, I need a higher level of P?, of all? Nutrients?

I am going to say all nutrients.
But first we need to see pictures of the whole plant.

I don't think adding more P will correct the problem. It may disguise the problem and make things look a little better but that should not be waht you want.
You want to apply every nutrient in the optimum amounts.
The K-lite concept is new so to correct your problem we need to use logic.

Most (all?) other users of K-lite are reporting very good growth with the K-lite nutrient ratio.
So we can assume that the ratio of nutrients is good in K-lite.
You should not need to change the ratio by adding more P.
The differing factor in your culture is the amount of extra rainfall that flushes your media more than other growers.

The simple solution for you is to increase the strength of the K-lite you are applying without changing the ratio by adding more P.

But you have to realize this process we are talking through is an examination and the best medicine can't be prescribed until the diagnosis is complete.
We still might learn that the chemical makeup of your water is causing problems with P, if that is the case then adding P is correct. But if the problem is a general shortage of all nutrients then adding P only makes things worse.

If I were you I would mix up a batch of K-lite at 2x strength and apply to a few plants to see what happens (it won't hurt them).

 

[gonewild]

I make the concentrate, make sure it's totally dissolved, add in my 20l sprayer and add the water. When I fertilizer I totally saturate. I start at one end, go all through them, and then do a second time. I do not water first.

I have not tested pH myself in a while. When I first switched to MSU RO I did use strips to test. It came in low 6ish over about a month.

Since then I just call the water department every few months to see where the pH is coming in. When I use rain water I have no idea what it is.

I have never tested TDS.

1.When you fertilize with the sprayer how many gallons of water do you use?
2.How many plants do you water?
3.Using #1 and #2 we need to know how much fertilizer is actually applied to each plant.

How much dry powder fertilizer actually goes on a plant in a week?

Are you making your concentrate using the same measure of K-lite as you did with MSU? (same spoonfuls per gallon).

 

[rcb]

1.When you fertilize with the sprayer how many gallons of water do you use?
2.How many plants do you water?
3.Using #1 and #2 we need to know how much fertilizer is actually applied to each plant.

How much dry powder fertilizer actually goes on a plant in a week?

Are you making your concentrate using the same measure of K-lite as you did with MSU? (same spoonfuls per gallon).

Perfect timing, I just got done fertilizing the outside plants.

For the outside plants, this morning I used 40l. There are about 300 plants outside right now I guess - both orchids and some of my cold tolerant Hoyas.

Same PPM, I dont remember the actual tsp/gallon that came out to, as when I was using MSU I had a two gallon spray, and now have a 20l sprayer.

But I don't think these answers will get what you want, they don't account for overspray and drippage. Especially since I have Hoyas mixed in, the second time I get the whole plant. The Hoyas grow better if the whole plant is sprayed - my orchids don't seem to care, so I do it.

So first spray is directed in the pots, second spray is directed in the pots and then the whole plant gets a spray down - actually a bench at a time.

What I did, before I began I grabbed a Catt hybrid in a 5 inch pot in LECA. So an average size one for me.

Weight was 426g

I let it drip for about 10 min, weight then was 482g

After the second spraying and after dripping for 10 min weight was 497g.

I think these numbers will get you closer to what you are calculating?

ok - really need to get to my son's game. And I've got a Ctsm mess all over my kitchen, so I'll be away for a while now. Thank you.

 

[gonewild]

What I did, before I began I grabbed a Catt hybrid in a 5 inch pot in LECA. So an average size one for me.

Weight was 426g

I let it drip for about 10 min, weight then was 482g

After the second spraying and after dripping for 10 min weight was 497g.

I think these numbers will get you closer to what you are calculating?

497g-426g = 71 grams of nutrient water within possible plant reach.

71g x .0001 (%N at 100ppm) = .0071g Nitrogen applied.
71 g x .0000083 (%P at 8.3ppm) = .0005893g Phosphorous applied.

Not very much, the plant must consume itself.

 

[Ray]

I was on that same thought path, Lance. This strike me as an overall starvation diet.

 

[keithrs]

I use about 15 gal.(about 56 liters) to water the 70 or so plants I have daily(while plants are growing) with a TDS of about 150. About 130 of that is fertilizer. Lately I have gone down to 100 TDS.

You may want to try osmocote on your plants. I think Ray knows how to make pellet forms. Maybe he can make some k-lite "osmocote".

 

[rcb]

Lance and Ray, If there is not enough overall fertilizer, then why did MSU work? The plants had been growing under these conditions since 2009.

Or do you mean that with K lite the growth and blooming is more, so the plant needs more nutrients than previously?

Keithrs, I have used Osmocote in the past, I had serious issues with it, much much worse than what I have now.