Early K-lite results

[gonewild]

Lance and Ray, If there is not enough overall fertilizer, then why did MSU work? The plants had been growing under these conditions since 2009.

That is a good question and I am thinking about it. There are a lot of possibles to consider.

Or do you mean that with K lite the growth and blooming is more, so the plant needs more nutrients than previously?

That would be a simple easy explanation but we can do better.

Keithrs, I have used Osmocote in the past, I had serious issues with it, much much worse than what I have now.

We had problems with Osmocote also, but that was years ago when it was new. Maybe they have fixed the problem but at the time the membrane did not release all of the nutrients.

 

[Rick]

I use about 15 gal.(about 56 liters) to water the 70 or so plants

Just on a water availability basis Renee puts about 130 mls of water into a pot, which retains about 1/2 (70ml) for the short term (since it probably evaporates out rather than getting consumed by the plant). Add any selective CEC storage and wash out, then this media (which I think is a minority choice for low K users at this point...outside of semi-hydro use) could definitely set up some starvation issues that I don't see in my mounted plants.

Keith is applying about 800ml per plant daily.

The expanded clay products are really made for SH based systems where standing water (with nutrients) is available constantly.

Maybe if the pots were plugged, or set into saucers to create a reservoir she would get much longer fert exposure (and obvious less waste).

I don't think increasing the dose will help that much except in pots with extreme root fill. The waste rate is very high.

But short of turning the system semi hydro, I think increased frequency (with even lower fert doses) like Keith suggested is the way to go.

 

[rcb]

The plant that I weighed this morning is one that just started a spike, and just has the very beginning of reddish edges to the leaves. I can pull that one and a couple others that should be spiking soon and double the concentration to see what happens. Not very scientific, but I guess its something. I didnt get pics this afternoon, sorry family time interfered, but I will in the morning.

And I will get the answets from my water department also.

Again thank you for your attention.

 

[gonewild]

Not very scientific, but I guess its something.

It is very scientific... experiment.

 

[rcb]

Just on a water availability basis Renee puts about 130 mls of water into a pot, which retains about 1/2 (70ml) for the short term (since it probably evaporates out rather than getting consumed by the plant). Add any selective CEC storage and wash out, then this media (which I think is a minority choice for low K users at this point...outside of semi-hydro use) could definitely set up some starvation issues that I don't see in my mounted plants.

Keith is applying about 800ml per plant daily.

The expanded clay products are really made for SH based systems where standing water (with nutrients) is available constantly.

Maybe if the pots were plugged, or set into saucers to create a reservoir she would get much longer fert exposure (and obvious less waste).

I don't think increasing the dose will help that much except in pots with extreme root fill. The waste rate is very high.

But short of turning the system semi hydro, I think increased frequency (with even lower fert doses) like Keith suggested is the way to go.

Or I can try this. The problem becomes avoiding rainfall, managing dry times and I travel for work each week. I have avoided back to back days if fertilizing, for example if I fertilize on a Friday, I avoided fertilizing again before Monday. So I could fertilize more often in a row.

I will be moving in early summer which will help with my fertilizing frequency.

Going back to organic media isnt an option for me.

 

[Rick]

The red edges on the hoya definitely shows K deficiency, but I wonder about the overall level of feeding.

http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/SCM-10.pdf

Ray the above document is comparable to the symptoms listed on the Antec site for orchids. Purple-red margins in old leaves is generally indicative of low P (rather than K). Low K generally produces yellowing at margins/tips followed by necrosis (black/burnt look).

Also Renee presented two hoya pics side by side which I think are particularly instructive. The one is leca is showing P deficiency, but the one in "organic media" is looking fine. Something very weird about this application of leca?!?

 

[gonewild]

I don't think increasing the dose will help that much except in pots with extreme root fill. The waste rate is very high.

But short of turning the system semi hydro, I think increased frequency (with even lower fert doses) like Keith suggested is the way to go.

Renee has said she will not be able to increase the frequency of application.
Growing in the leca medias will require more nutrient waste but probably not a big cost factor.
So the solution is to increase the dose to bring nutrient levels closer to those showing good results.

I don't have my EC meter here to test a sample solution so maybe someone else can.
I would bring the total fertilizer up to at least 500ppm to correct the deficiency.
This may seem high but considering the total volume of water her plants receive I think it will work.

So how many tsp per gallon of K-lite would make a 500ppm solution?

 

[rcb]

Renee has said she will not be able to increase the frequency of application.
Growing in the leca medias will require more nutrient waste but probably not a big cost factor.
So the solution is to increase the dose to bring nutrient levels closer to those showing good results.

I don't have my EC meter here to test a sample solution so maybe someone else can.
I would bring the total fertilizer up to at least 500ppm to correct the deficiency.
This may seem high but considering the total volume of water her plants receive I think it will work.

So how many tsp per gallon of K-lite would make a 500ppm solution?

Well that is easy math, i can just multiply by 5

Isnt that a bit extreme? Should I try 250 ppm first?

 

[Rick]

Lance

I think there is something about the Leca application that really is causing a specific P shortage.

As noted she never developed N or K starvation issues with MSU, so I don't think it is a good idea to pump the N up 5 times more (400ppm more N) than she ever used in the past just to get another 40 ppm of P.

 

[gonewild]

Or I can try this. The problem becomes avoiding rainfall, managing dry times and I travel for work each week. I have avoided back to back days if fertilizing, for example if I fertilize on a Friday, I avoided fertilizing again before Monday. So I could fertilize more often in a row.

What you need is the fertilizer applied with each watering. Because of the rain this is not possible. So the only thing you can actually do is to increase the dose to compensate. You can apply a much stronger dose since you know the rains will dilute it. The K-lite rates are based on the nutrients staying in the pots and yours are passing through.

Increasing the dose will be somewhat like applying a supplement like bone meal. It will add more P that will solve the P shortage. But your plants are short on all nutrients. So increase the dose of K-lite without adding the dry fertilizers. This will allow you to benefit from the K-lite ratio that is showing good results. All you need to do is get the nutrient levels up to where you thought they were in the first place.

At 500ppm nutrients in the water you will not "burn" the plants. Applying this rate at your current twice weekly will probably bring the average level close to what you thought you were getting with the 100ppmN dose.

 

[gonewild]

Lance

I think there is something about the Leca application that really is causing a specific P shortage.

As noted she never developed N or K starvation issues with MSU, so I don't think it is a good idea to pump the N up 5 times more than she ever used in the past just to get another 30 ppm of P.

Yes that is my thought. Keep the K-lite ratio and adjust the dose up until it works. It will effectivly be the same dose you are applying to your plants.

 

[Rick]

I'd just bone meal it.n But it can be a bit hard to figure what's going on from generic top dress of solids.

Or (once I do the math) add some bone meal to the liquid kelp extract, and add that to the fert mix to get that to the plants P dose back up to 50ppm on a low regular kelp dose.

 

[gonewild]

Well that is easy math, i can just multiply by 5

No, not that simple. Multiplying by 5 brings the N level up to 500. We want the total to be 500 including P and K and Ca and Mg and any other salts in k-lite.
Probably more like 3 or 4 times?

Isnt that a bit extreme? Should I try 250 ppm first?

No it is not extreme. Consider all the rain and water that flush your media.
Your plants are not especially fertilizer sensitive like Paphs or Phrags they will tolerate very strong doses. Applying Nutrient solutions at 500ppm is common in commercial production. But remember I not talking about 500ppm of N, I am talking about 500ppm total nutrients.

 

[gonewild]

I'd just bone meal it.n But it can be a bit hard to figure what's going on from generic top dress of solids.

Or (once I do the math) add some bone meal to the liquid kelp extract, and add that to the fert mix to get that to the plants P dose back up to 50ppm on a low regular kelp dose.

Yes but look at the small amount of N that the plants actually are getting.

 

[Rick]

Yes that is my thought. Keep the K-lite ratio and adjust the dose up until it works. It will effectivly be the same dose you are applying to your plants.

I'm not sure I follow, but I guess this assumes that the waste and plant uptake rate are proportionately even across all nutrients in the mix.

The evidence doesn't seem to support this since the symptoms appear to be P deficiency and not universal (otherwise old MSU would have failed too).

 

[Rick]

Yes but look at the small amount of N that the plants actually are getting.

The numbers don't support the theory of how much we think the plant should be getting. They got the same N with MSU and did fine.

 

[Rick]

Yes but look at the small amount of N that the plants actually are getting.

Kind of goes back to all those conversations we had about how much orchids just don't get in the rainforest overall!

 

[Rick]

But remember I not talking about 500ppm of N, I am talking about 500ppm total nutrients.

Well for K lite if you feed at 100ppm N then you have about 250ppm total.

So about 2 X the normal dose.

 

[Rick]

Just pulled the specs and did the math. Its 225ppm total for 100ppm N

So 2X is 450ppm total

Every 100ppm N of K lite will give you 8.3ppm P

MSU at 100 ppm N gave 50ppm P

So it seems like the answer is somewhere between 8.3 and 50. (But a max factor of about 4X)

But we don't know if 50 ppm p is excess or just enough. Going incrementally 8.3ppm at a time to get back to 50 while at the same time adding a bunch of other stuff that's either wasted or will become a problem seems a shame. Back to the old shotgun approach.

Also new growth, and moss growth is good. Which seems like most everything else reduced by K lite (mostly K) is good. So why bump that back up, rather than just working around the Leca/phosphorus issue?

 

[gonewild]

I'm not sure I follow, but I guess this assumes that the waste and plant uptake rate are proportionately even across all nutrients in the mix.

The evidence doesn't seem to support this since the symptoms appear to be P deficiency and not universal (otherwise old MSU would have failed too).

Yes it assumes the loss is proportional. It has to be.

From the leaf picture Renee posted I see a general nutrient shortage including N. The leaves should be darker green, but that is why I want to see whole plant pictures.

The old MSU did not fail totally because the ratios were different. Renee has said her new growth is better now than with the old MSU. That fact alone means that actually the old MSU had failed. But because the NPKCAMg ratios were what they were the plants seemed to be in balance...but they were not or they would have been growing growth like the K-lite is producing how. You should read your article!

The only part about the K-lite methods I have been not sure about was the low doses. Now I know why. I water a lot more than most people and i apply more fertilizer than most people. Now Renee is here and she waters more than most people and the low dose is not working. It is a simple solution to increase the dose but keep the ratio. In actuality Renee will be supplying her plants with the same nutrients you apply to yours, She will just uses more water and fertilizer to do it. This is part of the learning curve where different environments need to be considered.

I believe the K-lite ratio is correct and the target nutrient levels are correct. Each grower must figure out how to hit the target levels.