Early K-lite results

[Stone]

Got the pics this morning.

This plant is Caulaelia Mizoguchi, currently in bloom with 3 spikes. Total 7 p'bulbs, 3 blooming, 3 loosing leaves, and one previously bloomed p'bulb so far staying green. None of these 7 p'bubs are more than 3 years old.

This is Guarianthe aurian.... don't make me spell it This is one of those exceptions it is not currently in bloom. (Mine bloom later here) A lot of p'bulbs, maybe 30+, of which in the past month, at least 10 have done this. You can see a clearly defined line, I want to comment, there is no shade/sun line on this leaf to cause that.

Now these next two are Hoyas which are also epiphytes, and which I am also seeing leaf issues with. They get the exact same treatment as the orchids. I show these because its a good comparison. This is not light related. These two are very closely related species, growing beside each other. The first on is in LECA, the second one is still in an organic media. Same watering, same light, same temps, same fertilizing rate and frequency.

And two root photos, two different plants that I choose to try and show the average out there. The first one, it's been about three years in it's current pot, the second one was repotted last summer.

Not sure about the orchids but the hoyas have Mg deficiency guarranteed. Maybe also some N issue as well? What is your mix pH? and do you use any Ammonium or Urea?

 

[gonewild]

The numbers don't support the theory of how much we think the plant should be getting. They got the same N with MSU and did fine.

No they only looked like they were doing fine with the old ratios. The same N was influenced by the higher K and P and lower Ca and Mg. Now K-lite is raising the bar on what :"fine" is.

Renee says her new growth is better now. That means the new ratios are better and that in turn means the MSU ratio and growth was not "fine". I just think she is not getting the same amount of minerals to her plants as people who water less.

 

[gonewild]

Kind of goes back to all those conversations we had about how much orchids just don't get in the rainforest overall!

Renee wants to win cultural awards not grow rainforest plants!

 

[gonewild]

Just pulled the specs and did the math. Its 225ppm total for 100ppm N

So 2X is 450ppm total

Every 100ppm N of K lite will give you 8.3ppm P

MSU at 100 ppm N gave 50ppm P

So it seems like the answer is somewhere between 8.3 and 50. (But a max factor of about 4X)

But we don't know if 50 ppm p is excess or just enough. Going incrementally 8.3ppm at a time to get back to 50 while at the same time adding a bunch of other stuff that's either wasted or will become a problem seems a shame. Back to the old shotgun approach.

Also new growth, and moss growth is good. Which seems like most everything else reduced by K lite (mostly K) is good. So why bump that back up, rather than just working around the Leca/phosphorus issue?

I'm not convinced we are seeing a P shortage due to the ratio. Since Renee is the only one reporting it that tells us it has something to do with her environment. it seems obvious to me the volume of water that her plants get is dropping the total nutrient dose too low. Not just the P.

Going up slowly is one way but as we go slowly she looses her leaves. My approach would be to feed maximum to stop starvation and then go down slowly until the problem reoccurs. Then go back up a notch and you have the correct application rate.

 

[Rick]

Yes it assumes the loss is proportional. It has to be.

From the leaf picture Renee posted I see a general nutrient shortage including N. The leaves should be darker green, but that is why I want to see whole plant pictures.
You should read your article!

This is part of the learning curve where different environments need to be considered.

The reason we changed the ratios in for K lite was because uptake is not proportional in plants, and the photo comparison between the hoyas also indicates that the different media are not supporting the fertilizer proportionately. Also I believe she said that mounted orchids (not in Leca) are fine.

Definitely a learning curve, I'll admit that.

I guess I'm more interested in figuring out the mysteries of Leca rather than conducting a tolerance test of K lite.

 

[gonewild]

Just pulled the specs and did the math. Its 225ppm total for 100ppm N

So 2X is 450ppm total

This is the dose... double what Renee was using. Apply often to begin, everyday is not too often to start the plants healing.

Also new growth, and moss growth is good. Which seems like most everything else reduced by K lite (mostly K) is good. So why bump that back up, rather than just working around the Leca/phosphorus issue?

Not bumping anything back up. Increasing the dose maintains the low ratio. Adding minerals to work around the phosphorous issue will change what other growers are having good results with. First step is to apply the correct amount.

 

[gonewild]

Not sure about the orchids but the hoyas have Mg deficiency guarranteed. Maybe also some N issue as well? What is your mix pH? and do you use any Ammonium or Urea?

That is what I see as well. That justifies increasing the amount of fertilizer applied.

 

[rcb]

Not sure about the orchids but the hoyas have Mg deficiency guarranteed. Maybe also some N issue as well? What is your mix pH? and do you use any Ammonium or Urea?

No I use nothing on my plants but K- lite and a couple applications a year of the pesticide Sevin. also, we are getting into spring here, so the sun is getting stronger, I haven't yet moved the plants to their more protected shade spots. So some of what you are seeing there is a bit too much sun.

Renee wants to win cultural awards not grow rainforest plants!

Someday......

The reason we changed the ratios in for K lite was because uptake is not proportional in plants, and the photo comparison between the hoyas also indicates that the different media are not supporting the fertilizer proportionately. Also I believe she said that mounted orchids (not in Leca) are fine.

Definitely a learning curve, I'll admit that.

I guess I'm more interested in figuring out the mysteries of Leca rather than conducting a tolerance test of K lite.

If it helps, I haven't exclusively used one type of LECA. I have plants in Prime Agra, Hydroton and another brand I have gotten that I can't remember right now. also don't forget Lava rock and Turface.

Also, a lot of the recent theories are related to one measurement from this morning. Let me pick a few more pots tomorrow morning and do the same weighing. Maybe I picked an outlier? We will see.

And correct, vast majority of my mounted plants are showing no issues. 1 orchid and two mounted Hoyas are the only ones. Most of them are mounted on cedar planks, with a little spag at the roots.

 

[Rick]

My approach would be to feed maximum to stop starvation and then go down slowly until the problem reoccurs. Then go back up a notch and you have the correct application rate.

Won't that take about 5 years to figure out? She's only loosing leaves on old growths. So to get enough bloomed out growths with leaves would take about 3-5 years wouldn't it?

 

[gonewild]

Also I believe she said that mounted orchids (not in Leca) are fine.

The material they are mounted on probably retains nutrients by absorption and they remain where the plants get a little each time it rains. In the leca two things happen. 1. most nutrients wash through with the first rain. 2. CEC ties up some nutrients. The solution to 1 and 2 is to apply more nutrients.

Definitely a learning curve, I'll admit that.

:clap:

I guess I'm more interested in figuring out the mysteries of Leca rather than conducting a tolerance test of K lite.

The two have collided.

 

[Rick]

And correct, vast majority of my mounted plants are showing no issues. 1 orchid and two mounted Hoyas are the only ones. Most of them are mounted on cedar planks, with a little spag at the roots.

Does this mean you only have 3 mounted plants?

What is the possibility of using trays or plugs to keep a reservoir of fert in your pots for an extended period?

 

[gonewild]

Won't that take about 5 years to figure out? She's only loosing leaves on old growths. So to get enough bloomed out growths with leaves would take about 3-5 years wouldn't it?

Once her plants stop loosing leaves she is in the zone. The reason to slowly reduce the amount is only to find the lower limit to reduce costs. Personally I would stay at the high rate because my interest is growing the plants faster than they grow in the wild (I did not say better because that is subjective). That is assuming the high rate solved the leaf loss problem and did not create some other issue.

 

[gonewild]

What is the possibility of using trays or plugs to keep a reservoir of fert in your pots for an extended period?

If the leca is causing problems by grabbing the P how will the reservoirs solve the problem. Won't the ratio of nutrients in the reservoir be out of balance?

 

[rcb]

Does this mean you only have 3 mounted plants?

What is the possibility of using trays or plugs to keep a reservoir of fert in your pots for an extended period?

No, sorry. It means of all my mounted plants, which I have at least 50, only 3 are showing issues. Those three are one orchid plus two Hoyas. But the majority of my mounted plants are deciduous Dens, so they drop their leaves anyways.

Well yes, already going on. Most of what we've discussed has been related to the plants that stay outside year round.

The ones that come inside during winter do have reservoir trays, while they are inside. While they are outside in warm weather they do not have trays. And yes a few of them have shown similar symptoms, although less severe. But many of them are seedlings, not at blooming point yet. But some have bloomed and shown the leaves turning then dropping, again not as severe though.

 

[Stone]

So some of what you are seeing there is a bit too much sun.

Yes I have grown many hoyas as well. Too much light will cause leaf yellowing but not reddening on the edges. Thats classic Mg deficiency. BUT! You might find it will disappear when the plants really start taking off in the summer. But why waste your time liquid feeding hoyas? You will get monster growth with a controlled release fertilizer like nutricote and a Ca. source like Gypsum sprinked on at the start of the season. Thats it!! And no deficiency issues. At one stage I had over 100 baskets of hoyas for retail sale and they were all treated this way.

 

[Rick]

If the leca is causing problems by grabbing the P how will the reservoirs solve the problem. Won't the ratio of nutrients in the reservoir be out of balance?

Well by your argument it is not causing disproportionate loss so adding reservoirs increases the amount of fert over time (same as feeding more frequently). This is basically what Ray does with Leca. He feeds at 50 ppm N but maintains more or less constant availability.

And comparing the results to old MSU use, the Leca P removal rate couldn't keep up with 50ppm input/ instantaneous waste rate. So if she can hold up 2-3 times the amount of fert in the pot over multiple days, she gets closer to the 50ppm P in/out rate (that didn't cause leaf drop).

From reading Renee's response above it sounds like we are getting somewhere.

 

[keithrs]

I'm not convinced we are seeing a P shortage due to the ratio. Since Renee is the only one reporting it that tells us it has something to do with her environment. it seems obvious to me the volume of water that her plants get is dropping the total nutrient dose too low. Not just the P.

Going up slowly is one way but as we go slowly she looses her leaves. My approach would be to feed maximum to stop starvation and then go down slowly until the problem reoccurs. Then go back up a notch and you have the correct application rate.

The problem I see with this is that signs that she's getting now took a whole year to show signs. How fast will it take for signs show up if you "fix" the problem than slowly decrease dosage. To me, It would seem like it would take too long to find the right amount.... Just seems like a lot of up and down in dosage before you find the rate dose.

I agree with Rick... Fert needs to be applied more often but stay at 100 ppm N(or her current rate). With a spike(x2) of fert. for a week or two to "jump start" her plants.

If it where me, I would not worry if it going to rain or not. I would apply anyways. The little bit of solution the plant/mix is holding is not very much compared to what the rain will give and offset alittle of the flushing.

Renee, May I suggest looking it a submersible or shallow well pump and using a hose with a misting(fogg-it) nozzle. You can mix your solution in a rain barrel or trash can. Makes it little easer to water with out having to mix every time you water. The set-up dont cost all that much. I spent about $200 for my whole set-up.

 

[rcb]

So, it seems like their is a consensus that I've got some kind of nutritional deficiency. Which there are 4 potentials suggested, K, P, Mg, or overall lack of adequate nutrition.

This could be caused by my water flushing, fertilizer rate/frequency, or some interaction with clay products. Or something weird with my water.

Suggestions have been add bone meal to increase P, increase concentration, keep concentration the same but increase frequency, or add reservoir to have nutrients available longer.

Unfortunately my life is a bit crazy busy right now, so it would be extremely difficult to test all of these. So what would be the consensus on two things to test first?

stone, I only got into Hoyas a couple years ago, and as I was already growing orchids, I just treated them the same to keep things simple. BTW, there is another Hoya grower in Canada who I converted to K lite, she grows her Hoyas in S/H and has reported great results.

 

[rcb]

Oops duplicate post

 

[gonewild]

The problem I see with this is that signs that she's getting now took a whole year to show signs. How fast will it take for signs show up if you "fix" the problem than slowly decrease dosage. To me, It would seem like it would take too long to find the right amount.... Just seems like a lot of up and down in dosage before you find the rate dose.

Yes it takes a long, I would not disagree with what you say. But it really is the only way to learn the perfect application.

I agree with Rick... Fert needs to be applied more often but stay at 100 ppm N(or her current rate). With a spike(x2) of fert. for a week or two to "jump start" her plants.

Yes 100 ppm with every watering is perfect. But she can not block the rainfall which dilutes and flushes the 100ppm. I think she also said fertilizing twice a week was about as often as she can get it done. Since she has no way to apply fertilizer 5 days out of 7 her best option is to apply extra on the days she does apply fertilizer. Somehow there has to be enough minerals to produce the mass of plant tissue.

If it where me, I would not worry if it going to rain or not. I would apply anyways. The little bit of solution the plant/mix is holding is not very much compared to what the rain will give and offset alittle of the flushing.

Yes fertilize rain or shine. Actually right after a rain is perfect timing.
Even at 200ppm N watering everyday would not be too much considering the rainfall in the equation. I am assuming it rains a lot of volume not just often.