ID of fairly common Hybrid clone

[Bailey Hale]

Does anyone have an ID on this hybrid. It is quite common in Europe, presumably being produced in the Netherlands or Germany. It appears to be the same clone every time you see it. (Would it kill them to label the orchids in Europe?)

We see lots of them here in Madeira each year, but they aren't locally produced. I bought this one 2 years ago with 3 blooms, it had 4 last year, and will have 5 this year. I do nearly nothing to it. It just hangs out by the back door and gets fed if I remember. It's super vigorous and easy and puts on a good show. I may give it a bigger pot this year and I'm afraid to see what it will do! I think it's about to bust the pot currently.

I know it's almost impossible to identify most of the mass market complex hybrids you see for sale, but this one is distinctive enough. I have a growing appreciation for aggressively easy growers and bloomers and I want to use some of this vigor in my breeding.

Thanks!

 

[Happypaphy7]

This flower shop at Funchal had a lot of complex hybrid Paphs. Quite a few kinds but none with a name.
Each pot had a few flowers and only cost around 40. This was a few years ago.
I have not seen complex paphs in bloom sold anywhere here in Germany this spring.
I prefer to have ID tag on them, but with such vigorous plants with multiple flowers at 40, I would pick one up in a hearbeat even without a tag. The question is where would I find one?
I mean I see one at a supermarket but nothing like a flower shop in Madeira where they had entire shop filled with these. Some had giant sized flower and others had very interesting bronze pattern. Also there were a few very nicely shaped vini (maudiae vini x charlesworthii type flowers) with gorgeous leaves.

 

[Bailey Hale]

This flower shop at Funchal had a lot of complex hybrid Paphs. Quite a few kinds but none with a name.
Each pot had a few flowers and only cost around 40. This was a few years ago.
I have not seen complex paphs in bloom sold anywhere here in Germany this spring.
I prefer to have ID tag on them, but with such vigorous plants with multiple flowers at 40, I would pick one up in a hearbeat even without a tag. The question is where would I find one?
I mean I see one at a supermarket but nothing like a flower shop in Madeira where they had entire shop filled with these. Some had giant sized flower and others had very interesting bronze pattern. Also there were a few very nicely shaped vini (maudiae vini x charlesworthii type flowers) with gorgeous leaves.

You still see many hundreds of complex hybrids for sale in Funchal for Christmas, and I am quite certain they are almost all grown in Germany and the Netherlands, despite the fact that we have the ideal climate to produce them here on the island. Madeira should be exporting them to the north, not the other way around! It is odd that you can't find them in Germany. I would think you could find them for half the price considering they wouldn't need to travel so far.

You can still buy P. insigne that is locally grown quite easily and in abundance, and sometimes you will find historic hybrids as well. But there is no production of modern hybrids on the island.

Sadly most of them arrive bruised or damaged by the time they get here, or they are damaged by rough handling on arrival. I always keep an eye out for any especially good ones and pick up one or two new ones each year, but I do prefer labels as well!

 

[Justin]

Do they still grow thousands of Paph insigne in Madeira? I was reminded of this old thread. The pictures are mindblowing:

https://www.slippertalk.com/threads/madeira-–-home-of-the-slipper-orchids.19044/

 

[Bailey Hale]

Do they still grow thousands of Paph insigne in Madeira? I was reminded of this old thread. The pictures are mindblowing:

https://www.slippertalk.com/threads/madeira-–-home-of-the-slipper-orchids.19044/

Of course! They are still very popular here. You see pots of them on doorsteps all over the island and cut stems are quite available and affordable. One large cut flower orchid grower has recently closed but it seems there are still many others producing. They could hardly be easier to grow in this climate.

 

[GuRu]

............... It appears to be the same clone every time you see it. (Would it kill them to label the orchids in Europe?).............

Bailey, these plants are not made for long living and therefore a printed tag makes too much work (if the producer gets only a small part of the price you have to pay in the end) and interests only a tiny part of the buyers.
Just my thoughts.

 

[Bailey Hale]

Bailey, these plants are not made for long living and therefore a printed tag makes too much work (if the producer gets only a small part of the price you have to pay in the end) and interests only a tiny part of the buyers.
Just my thoughts.

You have a point. I suppose the majority of them die within their first year of sale.

 

[Happypaphy7]

You still see many hundreds of complex hybrids for sale in Funchal for Christmas, and I am quite certain they are almost all grown in Germany and the Netherlands, despite the fact that we have the ideal climate to produce them here on the island. Madeira should be exporting them to the north, not the other way around! It is odd that you can't find them in Germany. I would think you could find them for half the price considering they wouldn't need to travel so far.

You can still buy P. insigne that is locally grown quite easily and in abundance, and sometimes you will find historic hybrids as well. But there is no production of modern hybrids on the island.

Sadly most of them arrive bruised or damaged by the time they get here, or they are damaged by rough handling on arrival. I always keep an eye out for any especially good ones and pick up one or two new ones each year, but I do prefer labels as well!

The ones I saw were in perfect conditions and so I thought they were grown locally.
I was quite pleasantly surprised to see lots of insigne with multiple flowers per pot that many homes had on their front yard and stairs.

 

[Walter Meshaka]

Does anyone have an ID on this hybrid. It is quite common in Europe, presumably being produced in the Netherlands or Germany. It appears to be the same clone every time you see it. (Would it kill them to label the orchids in Europe?)

We see lots of them here in Madeira each year, but they aren't locally produced. I bought this one 2 years ago with 3 blooms, it had 4 last year, and will have 5 this year. I do nearly nothing to it. It just hangs out by the back door and gets fed if I remember. It's super vigorous and easy and puts on a good show. I may give it a bigger pot this year and I'm afraid to see what it will do! I think it's about to bust the pot currently.

I know it's almost impossible to identify most of the mass market complex hybrids you see for sale, but this one is distinctive enough. I have a growing appreciation for aggressively easy growers and bloomers and I want to use some of this vigor in my breeding.

Thanks!
View attachment 51392View attachment 51393

Maybe worth the detective work to hunt down the grower and distributor. It's absolutely beautiful.

 

[Bailey Hale]

The ones I saw were in perfect conditions and so I thought they were grown locally.
I was quite pleasantly surprised to see lots of insigne with multiple flowers per pot that many homes had on their front yard and stairs.

I have only been here 2 years but I hear that there used to be at least 2 more orchid nurseries on the island that have since closed, so maybe they were producing at a higher level in the past. Honestly if they would just import them in low bud and let them develop here the results would be far superior, but it's easier to just bring them in almost in full flower.

There is still one old orchid nursery here, but they don't do much with Paphs and they don't have much for sale. A large cut orchid grower also just went out of business. They sold off their stock of Paphs, which were mostly Paph. Invincible from what I hear. I did buy a few hundred traditional antique clay pots from them but it is still sad to see these old businesses close to make room for development.

I talk about starting an orchid nursery here someday, but if I am smart I'll just keep it a serious hobby!

Here are some pots of P. insigne and King Arthur that I picked up last year from yet another orchid business that was closing. It was run by a nice old lady that kept a couple hundred pots behind her house for cut flower sales but it was getting to be more than she could keep up with. The tradition seems safe for now but I do worry about the local production long term.

 

[BrucherT]

Isn’t the thing on Madeira P. Leeanum?

 

[Happypaphy7]

No, the thing on Madeira is insigne. They are very common and apparently grows very well as if they are native there.
At the cutflower market, the most common were Invincible and insigne. and they were very cheap.

 

[Happypaphy7]

I have only been here 2 years but I hear that there used to be at least 2 more orchid nurseries on the island that have since closed, so maybe they were producing at a higher level in the past. Honestly if they would just import them in low bud and let them develop here the results would be far superior, but it's easier to just bring them in almost in full flower.

There is still one old orchid nursery here, but they don't do much with Paphs and they don't have much for sale. A large cut orchid grower also just went out of business. They sold off their stock of Paphs, which were mostly Paph. Invincible from what I hear. I did buy a few hundred traditional antique clay pots from them but it is still sad to see these old businesses close to make room for development.

I talk about starting an orchid nursery here someday, but if I am smart I'll just keep it a serious hobby!

Here are some pots of P. insigne and King Arthur that I picked up last year from yet another orchid business that was closing. It was run by a nice old lady that kept a couple hundred pots behind her house for cut flower sales but it was getting to be more than she could keep up with. The tradition seems safe for now but I do worry about the local production long term.

Do you know why the nurseries are closing down on the island? Is it that no younger people wanting to take over the ones that retire, or is it the cost of running the business does not really make sense anymore? I mean with the moderate climate on the island I would think that the heating (which I suspect might be the major costs) would not be necessary or only at the bare minimum on oddly cold days/years.
As long as there's enough demand on the island, any species in the section Paphiopedilum or complex hybrid should do very well.

 

[Bailey Hale]

Isn’t the thing on Madeira P. Leeanum?

There are certainly records of Leeanum here but they aren't commonly seen anymore. I'm sure they are still in circulation. There are 2 or 3 insigne clones in circulation and undoubtedly some other clones hiding in plain sight on doorsteps around the island!

 

[Bailey Hale]

No, the thing on Madeira is insigne. They are very common and apparently grows very well as if they are native there.
At the cutflower market, the most common were Invincible and insigne. and they were very cheap.

Insigne starts in late November and peaks at Christmas. You can still find them for €1 each, but €2 per stem is the more current price. Invincible is available in February and is a bit more expensive and a bit less common.

 

[Bailey Hale]

Do you know why the nurseries are closing down on the island? Is it that no younger people wanting to take over the ones that retire, or is it the cost of running the business does not really make sense anymore? I mean with the moderate climate on the island I would think that the heating (which I suspect might be the major costs) would not be necessary or only at the bare minimum on oddly cold days/years.
As long as there's enough demand on the island, any species in the section Paphiopedilum or complex hybrid should do very well.

I think there are a number of factors. From what I hear one or maybe two older operations sustained fire damage and never recovered. I don't know if this was from the wild fires of 2016 or were standalone incidents.

While cut insigne production seems to be quite decentralized (with a number of people producing a few hundred stems each year in their back yards) I gather the larger plant producers were foreigners who maybe moved here with an eye on the climate and brought their passion with them. There are/were aristocratic families here as well who were very involved in orchids and horticulture but it seems most of the younger generations have either moved back to the UK or other parts of the world. I'm not sure orchid growing was ever very lucrative here. Perhaps before tissue culture and large scale international shipping one could make a living supplying tourists and specialists in Europe.

The cut orchid business that is closing currently is in the middle of Camara do Lobos and is being developed to build a care home for the elderly. The land has become much more valuable than the crop produced there and the next generation also seems to not have the interest in running a horticultural business with potentially low margins.

Wages are very low here and the average local person can't spend much on plants. The locals are very good at propagating and sharing divisions and cuttings which is how most of the insigne seem to have gotten around. Even my local friends who can afford fancy plants will scoff at paying more than a few euros for anything. They'll wait to find a cheap division or take a cutting somewhere if possible.

The climate is perfect for insigne, complex and the like with no heating whatsoever. Same for Cymbidiums and most Cattleyas. At a bit of elevation there is no reason one couldn't succeed with Odotontoglossums and Masdevalias and Disa even.

The topography makes it difficult to find a place to put a big greenhouse range particularly as more of the agricultural land is developed for housing and tourism. Production would probably never be large enough to supply the Dutch auction with cut flowers.

There may be a market for the export of potted plants, but Europeans are seemingly more interested in species than hybrids or so it seems and it will always be cheaper to sell wild collected species plants than those cultivated in labs. Transport of goods off of the island is also very difficult.

I imagine I will just keep acquiring and breeding and accumulating to the point where I need to sell off some plants to tourists to make room for more! For now I can't quite figure out how to turn it into a real business here, despite the mild humid climate, clean water and low cost of labor.

 

[CharlesD]

I think there are a number of factors. From what I hear one or maybe two older operations sustained fire damage and never recovered. I don't know if this was from the wild fires of 2016 or were standalone incidents.

While cut insigne production seems to be quite decentralized (with a number of people producing a few hundred stems each year in their back yards) I gather the larger plant producers were foreigners who maybe moved here with an eye on the climate and brought their passion with them. There are/were aristocratic families here as well who were very involved in orchids and horticulture but it seems most of the younger generations have either moved back to the UK or other parts of the world. I'm not sure orchid growing was ever very lucrative here. Perhaps before tissue culture and large scale international shipping one could make a living supplying tourists and specialists in Europe.

The cut orchid business that is closing currently is in the middle of Camara do Lobos and is being developed to build a care home for the elderly. The land has become much more valuable than the crop produced there and the next generation also seems to not have the interest in running a horticultural business with potentially low margins.

Wages are very low here and the average local person can't spend much on plants. The locals are very good at propagating and sharing divisions and cuttings which is how most of the insigne seem to have gotten around. Even my local friends who can afford fancy plants will scoff at paying more than a few euros for anything. They'll wait to find a cheap division or take a cutting somewhere if possible.

The climate is perfect for insigne, complex and the like with no heating whatsoever. Same for Cymbidiums and most Cattleyas. At a bit of elevation there is no reason one couldn't succeed with Odotontoglossums and Masdevalias and Disa even.

The topography makes it difficult to find a place to put a big greenhouse range particularly as more of the agricultural land is developed for housing and tourism. Production would probably never be large enough to supply the Dutch auction with cut flowers.

There may be a market for the export of potted plants, but Europeans are seemingly more interested in species than hybrids or so it seems and it will always be cheaper to sell wild collected species plants than those cultivated in labs. Transport of goods off of the island is also very difficult.

I imagine I will just keep acquiring and breeding and accumulating to the point where I need to sell off some plants to tourists to make room for more! For now I can't quite figure out how to turn it into a real business here, despite the mild humid climate, clean water and low cost of labor.

I think accumulating all the nice stuff that is available on the island and using that to hybridize is a worthy goal. Not sure how hard it is to bring in anything new. Regardless, finding nice paphs does not seem to get any easier wherever one lives

 

[Happypaphy7]

I think there are a number of factors. From what I hear one or maybe two older operations sustained fire damage and never recovered. I don't know if this was from the wild fires of 2016 or were standalone incidents.

While cut insigne production seems to be quite decentralized (with a number of people producing a few hundred stems each year in their back yards) I gather the larger plant producers were foreigners who maybe moved here with an eye on the climate and brought their passion with them. There are/were aristocratic families here as well who were very involved in orchids and horticulture but it seems most of the younger generations have either moved back to the UK or other parts of the world. I'm not sure orchid growing was ever very lucrative here. Perhaps before tissue culture and large scale international shipping one could make a living supplying tourists and specialists in Europe.

The cut orchid business that is closing currently is in the middle of Camara do Lobos and is being developed to build a care home for the elderly. The land has become much more valuable than the crop produced there and the next generation also seems to not have the interest in running a horticultural business with potentially low margins.

Wages are very low here and the average local person can't spend much on plants. The locals are very good at propagating and sharing divisions and cuttings which is how most of the insigne seem to have gotten around. Even my local friends who can afford fancy plants will scoff at paying more than a few euros for anything. They'll wait to find a cheap division or take a cutting somewhere if possible.

The climate is perfect for insigne, complex and the like with no heating whatsoever. Same for Cymbidiums and most Cattleyas. At a bit of elevation there is no reason one couldn't succeed with Odotontoglossums and Masdevalias and Disa even.

The topography makes it difficult to find a place to put a big greenhouse range particularly as more of the agricultural land is developed for housing and tourism. Production would probably never be large enough to supply the Dutch auction with cut flowers.

There may be a market for the export of potted plants, but Europeans are seemingly more interested in species than hybrids or so it seems and it will always be cheaper to sell wild collected species plants than those cultivated in labs. Transport of goods off of the island is also very difficult.

I imagine I will just keep acquiring and breeding and accumulating to the point where I need to sell off some plants to tourists to make room for more! For now I can't quite figure out how to turn it into a real business here, despite the mild humid climate, clean water and low cost of labor.

Thank you for your kind reply. I wish you all the very best!