Judging Legal and Illegal Plants

[Roy]

As far as I know, there are no bans/illegal plants listed in Australia. We can buy anything. I think they do need documentation that they are nursery raised plants ( easy enough to get) & flasks, no problems at all.
What the authorities need to realise is that if these 'illegal' plants are imported in flask, it's actually preserving the species. It may be lost to the wild like many orchids have been, nothing we can do about that, but by these plants being grown in cultivation, they won't be lost for ever.

 

[gonewild]

Part of the Lacey Act.....

As amended, the Lacey Act now makes it unlawful to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce any plant taken in violation of any Federal, State, tribal, or foreign law that protects plants.
The Lacey Act also now makes it unlawful to make or submit any false record, account, or label for, or any false identification of, any plant covered by the Act.

Note the word "receive".

 

[Roy]

Great if it works, how can they tell if seedlings in a flask weren't produced from legally acquired plants & the paperwork supplied by a genuine registered nursery in the country of origin isn't correct & that nursery is allowed to export said plants/flasks. Dangerous to assume but I would think the nursery would have the authority number on the paperwork.

 

[gonewild]

Great if it works, how can they tell if seedlings in a flask weren't produced from legally acquired plants & the paperwork supplied by a genuine registered nursery in the country of origin isn't correct & that nursery is allowed to export said plants/flasks. Dangerous to assume but I would think the nursery would have the authority number on the paperwork.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not supporting the Lacey Act.
I'm only pointing out why the AOS would have a policy to not accept certain suspect species for awards.

If someone is accused of a violation they must prove the plant is from a legal source. The legal costs of defense are enormous.

Just an example would be Paphs from Vietnam that were possibly smuggled into China and then exported as if they were native to China. If someone does genetic DNA research and concludes that the Chinese plants are in fact from Vietnam populations that would mean that someone violated a law to move the plants to China. Under the Lacey Act everyone that handles one of these species after the law was violated (forever) has violated the Lacey Act.

Ridiculous law but it was passed unanimously by USA congress and recently copied by the EU.

 

[Roy]

Yep, crazy law. What would happen if flasks of seedlings (eg selfings/outcrosses) from Australian stock. We have plants here grown from flask direct from eg. Vietnam & China.

 

[shadytrake]

So the hangianum crosses being sold at Redlands were illegal?

 

[ZWUM]

The problem is that CITES listed plants are not legal to import either unidentified or mis-identified.
Making a "mistake" importing CITES species is a crime in the USA.

How can a Paph species be imported as an unidentified species legally?
How can a USFW administrator make a decision that would legalize an illegally imported plant?

If you take a "suspect" species into public view be prepared to prove your innocence. If the AOS receives and illegal species into their possession (judging room) they could be considered as a participant in illegal species trafficing. If they award the plant they could be involved in a conspiracy to increase it's commercial value......

All depends on how much faith you have that the Government Agents always use common sense and compassion.

Remember now under the Lacey Act if you have any doubt about the legality of a plant's origin it is a crime to transport it across a State border.
It is not a crime to own the plant. But it is to transport it or use it for monetary gain, that includes gifting and trading.

When you say CITES plants are illegal to import, are you referring specifically to appendix 1 species? All orchids are listed, most being appendix 2, but that doesn't make them illegal to import. Even appendix 1 species can be imported. It's legal to do so as long as the country of origins CITES documents accompanying the the import have the appedix 1 plants contained listed on the docs. If importing CITES listed plant were illegal, what would be the purpose of issuing a permit to import them?

 

[gonewild]

When you say CITES plants are illegal to import, are you referring specifically to appendix 1 species? All orchids are listed, most being appendix 2, but that doesn't make them illegal to import. Even appendix 1 species can be imported. It's legal to do so as long as the country of origins CITES documents accompanying the the import have the appedix 1 plants contained listed on the docs. If importing CITES listed plant were illegal, what would be the purpose of issuing a permit to import them?

No I'm not saying CITES plants are illegal to import.
I'll try to clarify....
What I said was that if they are mis-labeled or unidentified they would be illegal to import.

CITES imports require exact and correct identification of species.
Since all orchids are listed on CITES it would not be legal to import an unidentified species.
If the species is mis-labeled it is a direct violation of CITES and now also the Lacey Act.

If you know that all orchids are listed on CITES and you include an unidentified species in the shipment youn are in violation of both CITES and Lacey.

There are no exceptions in the law that allow for honest mistakes.

CITES and Lacey are just laws and like other laws they are not always enforced to the letter of the law but they can be at any moment.

 

[gonewild]

So the hangianum crosses being sold at Redlands were illegal?

That is a good question.
Did they originate from Vietnam or China?
If they originate from Vietnam and have been Naturalized in China it could be argued that the species are in fact true Chinese plants and legal under CITES.
But as a counter argument if the plants were moved from Vietnam to China for the purpose of Naturalizing them to circumvent CITES they may be legal under CITES but they would be illegal under Lacey.

The problem for orchid collectors is that under Lacey you are required to do "due diligence" to verify they species you are involved with are in fact from legal sources.
Since everyone knows there is controversy over the Vietnam species how can you be positive if they are legal or not? If you are not positive about the origin is it "due diligence" to purchase them?

 

[gonewild]

Yep, crazy law. What would happen if flasks of seedlings (eg selfings/outcrosses) from Australian stock. We have plants here grown from flask direct from eg. Vietnam & China.

The only way to know that answer will be to see the result of a criminal prosecution.
From China there is some form of defense to argue but if the parents are direct from Vietnam there is not much defense, is there?

 

[Pete]

I think the AOS is following the BS that only hang plants imported from Perner are legal; while records show that for years MANY unidentified species legally imported from many sources with no issue. I don't believe in a few years anyone will be held responsible to have paperwork to have a plant judged or awarded.

my plants ARE from Perner. thats what i was saying.

 

[shadytrake]

That is a good question.
Did they originate from Vietnam or China?
If they originate from Vietnam and have been Naturalized in China it could be argued that the species are in fact true Chinese plants and legal under CITES.
But as a counter argument if the plants were moved from Vietnam to China for the purpose of Naturalizing them to circumvent CITES they may be legal under CITES but they would be illegal under Lacey.

The problem for orchid collectors is that under Lacey you are required to do "due diligence" to verify they species you are involved with are in fact from legal sources.
Since everyone knows there is controversy over the Vietnam species how can you be positive if they are legal or not? If you are not positive about the origin is it "due diligence" to purchase them?

I guess one would assume that the vendor brought them in legally, because a layperson would not know to do due diligence and ask for paperwork. I mean I knew that there was some controversy surrounding the species but I didn't know hybrid crosses were illegal without paperwork until reading this thread.

 

[NYEric]

my plants ARE from Perner. thats what i was saying.

Yes, I understood that. I just don't believe that technically they are any more legal than the same species or hybrids imported from Taiwan, or anywhere alse. Just a case of the Glorious People's Democratic Republic throwing its hefty financial clout around to circumvent laws.

 

[gonewild]

I guess one would assume that the vendor brought them in legally, because a layperson would not know to do due diligence and ask for paperwork. I mean I knew that there was some controversy surrounding the species but I didn't know hybrid crosses were illegal without paperwork until reading this thread.

You are 100% correct. But the New Lacey Act Amendment requires all persons including laypersons to do the due diligence.
Unfortunately it is not really possible (practical) for a layperson to comply with the law. And that is (probably) the underlying intent of the law, to make it impossible so you will give up and stop buying plants.

But some good news is that after 5 years of implementation the Lacey Act Amendment is failing and causing a lot of administrative problems for USFW.