K-lite fertilizer

[Stone]

phosphorus is basically needed for specialty things that grow and flower very quickly, with lots of branching and flower buds, like hothouse and fall chrysanthemums. it has been proven at least in trials that may or may not have been published publically. but, if you have a mum that is growing quickly and it's about to get to the stage where it is going to be putting out lots of those branches (and the flower buds are on the ends of those little branches), and you don't have enough basic nitrogen and phosphorus, you will retard branching and subsequently the number of flowers. branches will also be brittle that do form if you don't have enough of phosphorus. so, the recommendation about 'high phosphorus for flowering' for orchids, probably came from the pot plant (flowers etc) market which is where a lot of other recommendations come from. I do have a feeling that for phals and other orchids that do have floral structures like stems and flowers that do grow very quickly, that if phosphorus and basic nitrogen is limiting (not really enough or it's blocked by other elements), then you can have aborting or poor structures or less flowers. Dr. Yin Tung Wang formerly of Texas did show that hybrid phals that didn't have enough general nitrogen did have less flowers. I don't remember if there was a correlation beyond that for phosphorus. I do believe that studies had shown that adding 'extra' phosphorus didn't make more flowers, but having enough of nitrogen and phosphorus was important to support a normal amount. adding more beyond a basic point didn't 'make' more and more flowers; general nutrition was necessary to make a 'normal' amount, and below the basic levels flowering dropped off. I do feel that making sure there is enough phosphorus around before flowering to make sure there is a basic amount is a good idea for very fast forming orchid flower structures, but that's more of an inference from watching things, and the fact that I often don't fertilize alot in the first place. someone that fertilizes a lot (that doesn't have a phosphorus problem because other elements are blocking it's uptake) probably won't have to worry as much about adding 'extra' phosphorus, and adding more and more I don't think will create more flowers

cnychrarles, I basically agree with all you've said. P is vital but extra P is unnecessary and the levels of P found in some ''bloom boosters'' can be counter-productive. Healthy plants have been found to have P levels 6-15% of N levels in thier tissues.
Chrysanthemum--P/N ratio:0.06-0.17
Phalaenopsis-----P/N ratio:0.20-0.28 That's 20- 28 of P% to N% and that's concidered to be higher than the great majority of species.
I'm holding a packet of African Violet fertilizer with an NPK of 14/15/11.5
That's P at over 100% of N!
Check out the results of this trial (R.T.Poole Foliage Digest 1990)

African Violet.
Fert. Flower number per plant
P/N K/N

0.14 0.52 4.0
0.44 0.83 2.8


I see the same kind of levels in some orchid bloom boosters

 

[emydura]

OK. Rick has broken me down and I will give this low K thing a go. oke:

So I am going to order this Trio fertiliser from Nutri-tech. Two questions.

Firstly, is this the only fertiliser I will need to use? I assume if I alternate with other fertilisers that may have higher K, I will be wasting my time.

Secondly, Nutri-tech sell two variations of this fertiliser - Trio™ (CMB) Foliar and Trio™ (CMB) Fertigate. The former has more Boron. At this stage I am thinking of going with the 2nd option (less Boron) but still applying it as a foliar fertiliser. Do you agree?

Here is the response from Nutri-tech about the differences between the two -

"Trio™ (CMB) Foliar 0.25% B, recommended application rate for orchard 5-7 L/ha foliar, 7-10 L/ha fertigation
Trio™ (CMB) Fertigate 0.1% B, recommended application rate for orchard 5-7 L/ha foliar, 7-20 L/ha fertigation

i.e. both products can be foliar applied or fertigated, but they have different amounts of boron in them. Boron is an essential nutrient but it can be toxic if over applied. Trio Fertigate contains less boron, which allows a higher recommended rate when fertigating. You therefore get more of the calcium and magnesium without over doing the boron. In addition to this the Trio Foliar is screened through a 75 micron sieve which ensures that it is suitable for foliar applications."

David

 

[emydura]

The more I think about it, the Boran issue only relates to fertigation and if you intend to fertilise above the recommended rate. As I have no intention to do either it makes more sense to get "Trio™ (CMB) Foliar.

David

 

[Ozpaph]

As discussed I rotate.
week 1 - 1/3 dose Miracle grow max feed tomato food + MgSo4 (teaspoon/9L)
week 2 - 1/3 Miracle grow + Calcium Nitrate (teaspoon/9L)
week 3 - Life force Trio
week 4 - Life force total cover

(http://www.scottsaustralia.com.au/Miracle-Gro/Miracle-Gro_for_Tomatoes).

Stephen

 

[Rick]

As discussed I rotate.
week 1 - 1/3 dose Miracle grow max feed tomato food + MgSo4 (teaspoon/9L)
week 2 - 1/3 Miracle grow + Calcium Nitrate (teaspoon/9L)
week 3 - Life force Trio
week 4 - Life force total cover

(http://www.scottsaustralia.com.au/Miracle-Gro/Miracle-Gro_for_Tomatoes).

Stephen

How long have you had your program going now Stephen?

at 1/3 MG your K is equivalent to 3 with much boosted Ca and Mg. Life Force trio has less than 1% K and tons of Ca. Can't recall the total cover yet.

 

[emydura]

How long have you had your program going now Stephen?

at 1/3 MG your K is equivalent to 3 with much boosted Ca and Mg. Life Force trio has less than 1% K and tons of Ca. Can't recall the total cover yet.

Here is a breakdown of total cover. It also says you can't use it while your plants are in flower. Given I would have always have Paphs in flower, this would get impractical.

Nitrogen. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8.39%
Phosphorus. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8.21%
Potassium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9.24%
Cobalt . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45 mg/L
Selenium. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 250 mg/L
Molybdenum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 285 mg/L
Calcium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 450 mg/L
Copper . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1100 mg/L
Magnesium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1650 mg/L
Boron . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1940 mg/L
Manganese. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4000 mg/L
Zinc . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4240 mg/L
pH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5.8
Specific Gravitiy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.28
Conductivity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 82.5

 

[emydura]

Life Force Trio has the following. So Rick, can I use nothing but this or do I need to alternate like Stephen to give my plants everything they need? I can't work out how much P it has. I believe kelp has no P which says to me this fertiliser contains no Phosphorous?

Calcium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17%
Magnesium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4.0%
Boron . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.25%
Total Nitrogen (as nitrate) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12.1%
Total Potassium (as organic K) . . . . . . . . . 0.45%
Sodium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.1%
Kelp and fulvic acid . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19%

 

[Ray]

Here is a breakdown of total cover. It also says you can't use it while your plants are in flower. Given I would have always have Paphs in flower, this would get impractical.

Nitrogen. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8.39%
Phosphorus. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8.21%
Potassium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9.24%
Cobalt . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45 mg/L
Selenium. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 250 mg/L
Molybdenum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 285 mg/L
Calcium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 450 mg/L
Copper . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1100 mg/L
Magnesium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1650 mg/L
Boron . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1940 mg/L
Manganese. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4000 mg/L
Zinc . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4240 mg/L
pH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5.8
Specific Gravitiy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.28
Conductivity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 82.5

How can those numbers be correct?

4240mg/L is 4.24g/L or 4240 ppm Zn alone.

 

[Rick]

Life Force Trio has the following. So Rick, can I use nothing but this or do I need to alternate like Stephen to give my plants everything they need? I can't work out how much P it has. I believe kelp has no P which says to me this fertiliser contains no Phosphorous?

Calcium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17%
Magnesium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4.0%
Boron . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.25%
Total Nitrogen (as nitrate) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12.1%
Total Potassium (as organic K) . . . . . . . . . 0.45%
Sodium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.1%
Kelp and fulvic acid . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19%

SlipperKing is corresponding with NTS because we don't see any phosphorus.

If it wasn't for the lack of P listed, this would be about what I was after.:wink:
If it really was shy on P, I might use it with a dash of potassium phosphate added.

 

[Rick]

How can those numbers be correct?

4240mg/L is 4.24g/L or 4240 ppm Zn alone.

I think they also expect a minimum 100 to 1 dilution for a start.

Zinc is really funny stuff in the toxicity world Ray. It's really sticky around organics and is easily chelated (like nickel) so strongly that even in a "soluble" chelated state, it passes right through cells without being utilized. Kind of like comparing sugar to Splenda. A subtle twist to the molecule still lets it taste the same, but completely useless to the cells as a carbohydrate source. Even waste water bacteria don't recognize it and pass it through as if it was sand.

But under the right conditions (no chelators and a pH close to 8.5) zinc is bad news.

 

[emydura]

SlipperKing is corresponding with NTS because we don't see any phosphorus.

If it wasn't for the lack of P listed, this would be about what I was after.:wink:
If it really was shy on P, I might use it with a dash of potassium phosphate added.

I will check with NTS on the P. They respond to me straight away.

I read that you cannot mix postassium phosphate with fertilisers containing Mg and Ca. Therefore they would have to be applied separately.

How is this for an alternative (Life Force Stimulant)? Contains P but no K as far as I can tell.

http://shop.nutri-tech.com.au/catal...d=190&osCsid=2c74d954f81f3c0748661150a756560b

Available Phosphorus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.5%
Soluble Potash . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8%
Sulphur . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1%
Magnesium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3500 ppm
Calcium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1100 ppm
Boron . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 95 ppm
Iron . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 110 ppm
Copper . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50 ppm
Zinc . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 ppm

 

[Rick]

I will check with NTS on the P. They respond to me straight away.

I read that you cannot mix postassium phosphate with fertilisers containing Mg and Ca. Therefore they would have to be applied separately.

How is this for an alternative (Life Force Stimulant)? Contains P but no K as far as I can tell.

http://shop.nutri-tech.com.au/catal...d=190&osCsid=2c74d954f81f3c0748661150a756560b

Available Phosphorus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.5%
Soluble Potash . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8%
Sulphur . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1%
Magnesium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3500 ppm
Calcium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1100 ppm
Boron . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 95 ppm
Iron . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 110 ppm
Copper . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50 ppm
Zinc . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 ppm

Well the potash is essentially a synonym for K so it has at least 6% K to it.

I don't know why you cant add K salts to ferts with Ca/Mg. MSU adds monopotasium phosphate with calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate.

 

[emydura]

Well the potash is essentially a synonym for K so it has at least 6% K to it.

I don't know why you cant add K salts to ferts with Ca/Mg. MSU adds monopotasium phosphate with calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate.

Potash. DOH!!!

I just read it from this link

http://www.haifachem.com/download/files/multi-mkp_1.pdf

Compatibility

Multi-MKP is compatible with most water-soluble fertilizers, except for fertilizers containing calcium (Ca++) or magnesium (Mg++). To apply Multi-MKP in combination with calcium or magnesium fertilizers, use two fertilizer tanks. If only a single fertilizer tank is available, apply those fertilizers at different times.

 

[Ozpaph]

How long have you had your program going now Stephen?

at 1/3 MG your K is equivalent to 3 with much boosted Ca and Mg. Life Force trio has less than 1% K and tons of Ca. Can't recall the total cover yet.

Since I started reading your low K info - about 4 months (coming into summer so much less fertilizer over winter).

 

[cnycharles]

i know things with sulfur you aren't supposed to mix with things that have calcium (and probably magnesium); I know there is more than that....

 

[Ozpaph]

Here is a breakdown of total cover. It also says you can't use it while your plants are in flower. Given I would have always have Paphs in flower, this would get impractical.

Nitrogen. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8.39%
Phosphorus. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8.21%
Potassium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9.24%
Cobalt . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45 mg/L
Selenium. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 250 mg/L
Molybdenum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 285 mg/L
Calcium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 450 mg/L
Copper . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1100 mg/L
Magnesium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1650 mg/L
Boron . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1940 mg/L
Manganese. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4000 mg/L
Zinc . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4240 mg/L
pH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5.8
Specific Gravitiy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.28
Conductivity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 82.5

I have no idea why it can't be used for flowering plants - doesn't make sense to me. I use it regardless - will let you know if I have a problem. I dont put in on the flowers - it might stain them.

 

[cnycharles]

I think if you are applying to plants with flowers, there might be some phytotoxicity where the flowers could be burned; someone selling flowering plants could then lose a sale crop. if they are just your flowers and you don't mind some burn then it might not matter (especially if you apply to the pot only)

 

[gonewild]

Here is a breakdown of total cover. It also says you can't use it while your plants are in flower. Given I would have always have Paphs in flower, this would get impractical.

Does it say you "can't" use it while plants are in flower? Or does it recommend that you don't?

 

[Rick]

Potash. DOH!!!

I just read it from this link

http://www.haifachem.com/download/files/multi-mkp_1.pdf

Compatibility

Multi-MKP is compatible with most water-soluble fertilizers, except for fertilizers containing calcium (Ca++) or magnesium (Mg++). To apply Multi-MKP in combination with calcium or magnesium fertilizers, use two fertilizer tanks. If only a single fertilizer tank is available, apply those fertilizers at different times.

Sulfate and Phosphate salts of calcium have relatively poor solubility. If you add a ton of soluble sulfate (say from sodium sulfate) to a high pH solution of (say calcium hydroxide) you'll get a bunch of insoluble gypsum formation.

But for hobby MSU you go from dry components to the final dilution in one shot, so it melts just fine without precipitation of anything.

If I was going to add potassium phosphate to the Life force Trio stuff, I would add it after its been diluted in my pump sprayer.

 

[keithrs]

I'm almost sold on the low K diet, Rick.... I grow mostly Catt. and Plueuro. alliance plants with only a few Phrags and two Paph(so far). I think I'll wait for spring to come around before I go full bore into low K diet. I definitely enjoy reading your(and others) post on the subject and all others for that matter.....

It's my understanding that MSU did do leaf analysts when they devised there fertilizer? If so, How could they be so wrong on the K?