Legal Paphiopedilum in the USA

[SelectOrchids]

After using the CITES Trade Database Query Tool, the results are below. The reported number and quantities result from a report BY THE USFWS of WHAT THEY ALLOWED TO IMPORT AND HAS BEEN REALLY IMPORTED:



First year, second 1 is for Appendix 1 CITES, third name, fourth importer (USA here), fifth exporter, sixth possible original exporter, seventh quantity, eight 'live specimen', nine purpose ( P personal, T trade), tenth origin ( I for Illegal, confiscated)

First the plants seized during the last 10 years, unknown species ( there are more of some known ones...),

2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US CA XX 1 live P I
1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US ID 1 live P I
1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US ID 71 live T I
1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US XX 4 live P I
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MX 1 live P I
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 1 live T I
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CH 1 live P I
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US HK 6 live T I
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 4 live P I
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 4 live P I
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 1 live P I
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 1 live T I
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US KR 20 live T I
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 1 live P I
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 5 live T I
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US PH 1 live P I
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 1 live P I
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US VN 68 live P I
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 4 live P I
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 1 live P I
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 8 live T I
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CN 36 live T I
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US PH 1 live P I
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 1 live T I
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 28 live P I
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US VN 1 live P I
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CN 95 live T I
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 1 live T I
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CN 3 live T I
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US HK 96 live T I
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 1 live P I
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NL 3400 live T I
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 168 live T I
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US VN 1 live P I
2009 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US VN 102 live T I
2009 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US XX 5 live P I
2009 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US XX 102 live T I
2010 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CN 16 live T I
2010 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 2 live T I

 

[SelectOrchids]

Second, new species legally importer in the USA, according to the USFWS:

T is trade, A artificiallly propagated,


2004 1 Paphiopedilum adductum US TH 123 live T A
2007 1 Paphiopedilum adductum US TH 80 live T A
2007 1 Paphiopedilum adductum US TW 2 live T A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum adductum US TH 42 live T A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum adductum US TW 10 live T A
2006 1 Paphiopedilum armeniacum US HK TH 600 live T A
2006 1 Paphiopedilum armeniacum US MY 50 live T A
2007 1 Paphiopedilum armeniacum US HK TH 300 live T A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum armeniacum US TH 311 live T A
2006 1 Paphiopedilum armeniacum US MY A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum barbigerum var. lockiainum US TH 5 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum gigantifolium US MY 14 cultures T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum gigantifolium US CA 5 live T A
2006 1 Paphiopedilum gigantifolium US DE 40 live T A
2007 1 Paphiopedilum gigantifolium US TW 5 live T A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum gigantifolium US TW 1 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum gigantifolium US TW 5 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum gigantifolium US MY A
2004 1 Paphiopedilum hangianum US TH 5 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hangianum US CA 3 live T A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum hangianum US CA 4 live T A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum hangianum US TW 180 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hangianum US TW 5 live T A
2004 1 Paphiopedilum helenae US TH 1 live T A
2006 1 Paphiopedilum helenae US CA TW 5 live T A
2007 1 Paphiopedilum helenae US CA 2 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum helenae US CA 5 live T A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum helenae US CA 4 live T A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum helenae US TH 10 live T A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum helenae US TW 30 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum helenae US TW 5 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US AU 114 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US CA 381 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US DE 303 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US JP US 13 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US JP 66 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US SG TW 4 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US TW 9174 live T A
2010 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US CO 1 live T A
2010 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US DE 305 live T A
2010 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US JP US 22 live T A
2010 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US TW 2737 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US CA 8 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US TH 1 live T A
2010 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US FR 32 cultures T A
2010 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US TH 45 live T A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US CA A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US CA A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US EC CO A
2010 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US FR A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum ooii US MY 4 cultures T A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum papuanum US TW 30 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum sangii US MY 24 cultures T A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum sangii US MY 60 live T A
2006 1 Paphiopedilum sangii US DE 30 live T A
2006 1 Paphiopedilum sangii US MY 10 live T A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum sangii US TW 20 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum sangii US MY A
2006 1 Paphiopedilum sangii US MY A
2007 1 Paphiopedilum schoseri US TW 9 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum tranlienianum US CA 10 live T
2008 1 Paphiopedilum tranlienianum US CA 4 live T
2008 1 Paphiopedilum tranlienianum US TH 5 live T
2008 1 Paphiopedilum tranlienianum US TW 60 live T
2003 1 Paphiopedilum vietnamense US TW 80 live T
2009 1 Paphiopedilum vietnamense US CA 3 live T
2008 1 Paphiopedilum vietnamense US TW 30 live T

 

[SelectOrchids]

Third, hybrid Paphiopedilum allowed by the USFWS as hybrid paphiopedilum without noticed parentage for most:


2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US AU 114 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US CA 381 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US DE 303 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US JP US 13 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US JP 66 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US SG TW 4 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US TW 9174 live T A
2010 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US CO 1 live T A
2010 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US DE 305 live T A
2010 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US JP US 22 live T A
2010 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US TW 2737 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US CA 8 live T A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US TH 1 live T A
2010 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US FR 32 cultures T A
2010 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US TH 45 live T A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US CA A
2008 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US CA A
2009 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US EC CO A
2010 1 Paphiopedilum hybrid US FR A

And the unknown identity plants ( can be species or hybrids...) allowed by the USFWS for import:

1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US AU 160 live T A
1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US BR 2 live T A
1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 57 live T A
1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US GB 50 live B A
1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US GB 1444 live T A
1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 2 live T A
1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US KE TH 22 live P A
1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NL 13805 live T A
1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ 1450 live T A
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US AU 16 live T A
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 1354 live T A
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US DE 450 live T A
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US FR 5 live T A
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US GB 2050 live T A
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 4 live T A
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NL 14166 live T A
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ 217 live T A
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 101 live T A
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW NL 55 live T A
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW US 455 live T A
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 1547 live T A
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US DE 300 live T A
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US FR 4 live T A
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US GB 760 live T A
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 11000 live T A
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NL 4953 live T A
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ 1210 live T A
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 613 live T A
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW NL 4200 live T A
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 11230 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US AU 103 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US BE 30 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US BR 30 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 1243 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US DE 370 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 18000 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MY 57 cultures T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NL 33486 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 350 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW XX 50 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW NL 1601 live T A
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 8675 live T A
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US AU 10 live T A
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US BR 21 live T A
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 1059 live T A
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US DE 345 live T A
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US GB 300 live T A
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 5 live T A
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NL 12968 live T A
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ 60 live T A
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 9950 live T A
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW NL 50 live T A
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 8573 live T A
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US ZW TH 4 live T A
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US AU 5 live T A
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US BR 33 live T A
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 727 live T A
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US DO 1500 live T A
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US GB 131 live T A
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 68 live T A
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NL 13206 live T A
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ 300 live T A
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 12 live T A
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW JP 300 live T A
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW NL 1150 live T A
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 27476 live T A
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US AU 30 live T A
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US BR 55 live T A
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 456 live T A
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US DE 410 live T A
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US DO 26500 live T A
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 172 live T A
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MM 6 live T A
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NL 7609 live T A
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 4 live T A
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW JP 750 live T A
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 17043 live T A
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US AU 150 live T A
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US BR 31 live T A
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 544 live T A
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US DE 1063 live T D
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US DO 21000 live T D
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US GB 1 live T D
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 115 live T D
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NL 2273 live T D
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 34678 live T D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US BR 30 live T D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 317 live T D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 1 live P D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA TW 14 live T D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US GB 1 live T D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MY 345 live T D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NL 33442 live T D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 22 live T D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 34751 live T D
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 628 live T D
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US DE 90 live T D
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US HK US 5 live B D
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US ID 10 live T D
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 60 live T D
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MY 100 live T D
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NL 25309 live T D
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 30 live T D
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 16660 live T D
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA US 20 live T D
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 124 live T D
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CO 2 live T D
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US DE 1054 live T D
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MY 120 live T D
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 12814 live T D
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US ZA 100 live T D
2009 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MY 50 live T D
2010 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 23 live T D
1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MY 200 live T D
1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ 350 live T D
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US BE 40 live T D
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ 68 live T D
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ 733 live T D
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US ZA 2 live T D
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ 200 live T D
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MY 13 live T D
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ 550 live T D
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MY 2 live T D
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MY 28 live T D
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ 3 live T D
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ 25 live T D
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 15 live T D
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ 3100 live T D
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 50 live T D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 43 live T D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US DE 350 live T D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP 150 live T D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MY 241 live T D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 98 live T D
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 4 live T D
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 16 live T D
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 10 live T D
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA 451 live T D
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH 1396 live T D
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TW 82 live T
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US GB 300 roots T
1998 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US FR
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US BE
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA US
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CR
1999 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US AU
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA US
2000 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TT
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA US
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA US
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CA
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MY
2001 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US FR
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US GB
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MY
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US SE
2002 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH
2003 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US MY
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US HK
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ
2004 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TT
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JE
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JE
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP
2005 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US NZ
2006 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US TH
2007 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP US
2008 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP
2009 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US CR
2009 1 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP
2009 2 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP US
2009 2 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP
2010 2 Paphiopedilum spp. US JP U

 

[SelectOrchids]

Some comments in short:

- The D surprises me... D means that the plant has been propagated from a CITES registered nursery, however the CITES book of registered nurseries, knowing the registration is a long process, does not show any nursery registered in many countries, that indeed exported successfully and imported successfully in the USA as registered nurseries. One flaw...

- It is very clear that the plants from Holger Perner ( that indeed are not yet reported, as they were traded in 2011) were not the first one to be legally imported in the USA.

- Gigantifolium is a legal species in the USA, no doubt about that. So are ooii, helenae, hangianum...

- They allowed the import of generic hybrids from Taiwan in huge quantities, as a result they have to accept that some might be from gigantifolium, intaniae or whatever...

- People speak bad about the USFWS, but it would be worthwhile to question straight the USFWS about those matters, not through some obscure AOS people, who may fine tune the answers according to their needs.

We can see from those data that gigantifolium is legal for quite a few people in the USA as a species... I seriously doubt too that the USFWS would 'deem' or 'comment' about the plants from that nursery being the only legal ones, first because it has to be confidential matters, second because they know that indeed it is not the case, and they could eventually be prosecuted by the other nurseries managers...

Now, a personal matter. I do have, for what it's worth, a CITES export/import permit for ooii, as I exported some legally from Malaysia. I am not the only one, but it is very clear that, first many plants for me are a hobby, and second, I would never write any invoice for those. I do not want to make the work of my competitors easier... I suspect many holders of the above mentioned permit do the same ( similar to The Orchid Zone who has indeed hangianum x rothschildianum, but do not sell them, I am pretty certain they are legal, but they do not want to launder plants from Taiwan...). Some would maybe sell such plants in cash, without invoice, but they are indeed safe on the legality of their plants, shall they have any USFWS control...

One other weird thing, some Paphiopedilum were allowed to be traded as Cites Appendix 2, as some countries like to make Appendix 2 cites for hybrids comprising at least one appendix 1 species. This still stands true today, but it really surprises me that the USFWS agrees for that...

 

[NYEric]

Thanks for these great lists.
First of all. the fact that the first list "seized" plants even exists is annoying!!

Secondly, the fact that gigantifolium and others have been imported legally since 2001 and there is still a question of legality shows there is a disconnect between fact, rumors and understanding.

 

[SelectOrchids]

Thanks for these great lists.
First of all. the fact that the first list "seized" plants even exists is annoying!!

Secondly, the fact that gigantifolium and others have been imported legally since 2001 and there is still a question of legality shows there is a disconnect between fact, rumors and understanding.

Apparently most of their finds are single plants sent by EMS, or in people's suitcases by luck. I think the three large quantities are, for the dutch one, paphiopedilum pot plant sent in a shipment of mix hybrids for the flower shop market, Vietnam maybe one suitcase or one box, and Thailand looking at the size, either one box or part of shipment that was not supposed to include any paphiopedilum.

All the seized plants are reported here actually, which means that the USFWS never found any real smuggler over the years. :evil:

 

[Justin]

interesting. Curious how many of the adductum imports were var. anitum? Looks like USFW is still seeing them as one species? I also wonder if we will see any US nurseries offering gigantifolium soon.

 

[Gcroz]

How is jackii viewed by USFWS? Do they look at it as a var. of malipoense, or as a distinct species?

 

[SlipperFan]

interesting. Curious how many of the adductum imports were var. anitum? Looks like USFW is still seeing them as one species? I also wonder if we will see any US nurseries offering gigantifolium soon.

I hope so!!!!!!!!

 

[chrismende]

These lists are fascinating and a bit puzzling since I don't know all the country codes

 

[NYEric]

CA - Canada, TH - Thailand, TW - Taiwan, JP-Japan, DE - well, you should know this one! oke: MY-Malaysia...I just am not sure what CR is; Croatia??

 

[Gcroz]

CA - Canada, TH - Thailand, TW - Taiwan, JP-Japan, DE - well, you should know this one! oke: MY-Malaysia...I just am not sure what CR is; Croatia??

CR might be Czech Republic?

 

[NYEric]

Could be. If I get a source there I will send USFW a box of gigantifolium and canhii!

 

[gonewild]

CR = Costa Rica

 

[Gcroz]

CR = Costa Rica

Boy, don't I feel like an idiot... I bet you are correct!

 

[cnycharles]

... that's okay, it's monday . besides, I saw much sillier things happening at work today

 

[slippertalker]

I am working on a project to include all species whether imported legally or otherwise to be eligible for AOS judging. The AOS doesn't want to be caught in a battle with USFWS over legalities.

Included on these lists are plants that were cleared by APHIS and customs, but are not legal according to USFWS. As USFWS is the enforcement part of the CITES situation, even if plants cleared into the U.S., they can be seized or the consignee placed into jeopardy legally.

My opinion is that the AOS is not a policeman and shouldn't be involved in such things, but their lawyer suggests that even judging these plants is taking "temporary" ownership places them in some legal peril. Once again, another lawyer might have an opposite arguement. If exhibited, the plant owner should be the party that has some legal danger, not the show or the AOS.

Hopefully, this can be pushed.....

 

[Gcroz]

My opinion is that the AOS is not a policeman and shouldn't be involved in such things, but their lawyer suggests that even judging these plants is taking "temporary" ownership places them in some legal peril. Once again, another lawyer might have an opposite arguement. If exhibited, the plant owner should be the party that has some legal danger, not the show or the AOS.

Hopefully, this can be pushed.....

I left the legal profession and therefore everything I say is not to be construed as legal advice or a binding legal opinion...

I agree with you analysis. Please see my discussion on this forum (Judging Discussion) for my reasoning. I think it is an issue where the AOS lawyer is concerned in the wake of kovachii and other scandals that USFWS is likely to be overly aggressive regarding these plants. It is my, educated, opinion that judging does not constitute possession or constructive possession that would cause criminal liability. But I do understand that the AOS may need to play "CYA" and that is also very reasonable, no matter how much I disagree with it.

 

[SelectOrchids]

Included on these lists are plants that were cleared by APHIS and customs, but are not legal according to USFWS. As USFWS is the enforcement part of the CITES situation, even if plants cleared into the U.S., they can be seized or the consignee placed into jeopardy legally.

The USFWS issues the import permit for App I species, so they need to know if they allow the import of those said species... As a result, if the USFWS does not agree for the import, the plants cannot be cleared. Later, the USFWS can cancel a permit if fraudulent data have been supplied ( batch of wild plants declared as artificially propagated, fake names...), but not in the case where artificially propagated plants are exported from a country within the range of that species...

My opinion is that the AOS is not a policeman and shouldn't be involved in such things, but their lawyer suggests that even judging these plants is taking "temporary" ownership places them in some legal peril.

According to any law, this is plain crap, and I would think that their lawyer just wants to 'show off'. If I go in a car show, and declare 'that car is nice', I am not the 'temporary owner' of that car.

 

[Gcroz]

According to any law, this is plain crap, and I would think that their lawyer just wants to 'show off'. If I go in a car show, and declare 'that car is nice', I am not the 'temporary owner' of that car.

+1 :evil: