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H
Howzat
Guest
Looking more closely, I have a little doubt if this is a Moustache (St Swithin Xphilippinense) = 1/4 rothschildianum and 3/4 philippinense. It looks more like a St Swithin to me??????????
emydura
Well-Known Member
As it is not a primary hybrid and St Swithin is one of the parents, a small percentage will predominantly look like the St Swithin parent. They won't all simply be an intermediate of the two parents. So I'm happy to accept the identification.
I disagree with Rick on this. I don't think the flower has to look a combination of the parents for it to receive the highest award. At the end of the day, the more the roth parent is dominant and the less phillipinense the better.
David
theres no way any of us could tell for certain the difference between a saint swithin and a moustache. genetics get all jumbled. especially when its just a couple taxa and backcrossing etc. petal stance is highly variable on st swithins and ive seen the same to be true in moustaches, which one would think should be more apt to have pendant type petals with the 2x phill.
SlipperKing
Madd Virologist
Let me clarify a bit here David. beautiful blending of both parents My statment here translates to: Is this plant an improvement over philippinense? I would say yes, is it an improvement over St. Swithin? My answer is no. Therefore not a beautiful blending of both parents . Awardable, probably so. The highest award given to a select few, I don't think so.
emydura
Well-Known Member
Thanks Rick for the clarification. I completely misinterpreted what you initially said thinking you believed it had to be some intermediate between the two parents.
David
emydura
Well-Known Member
I sometimes wonder what is the point of a cross like Moustache. I can't see how crossing phillipinense back to St Swithin would ever improve the flower. If you are lucky you may get a flower that is or very close to St Swithin. But I can't imagine you would ever get one better. The best St Swithins leave this plant for dead. To be honest I can't even see how you could ever get a plant of FCC quality from this cross.
I guess the main advantage of a plant like Moustache is it may look like a St Swithin but be even more vigorous (just like this clone).
David
B
Brian Monk
Guest
I suspect you are right David. An increase in vigor is abot the only reason I can see for making the cross. UNfortnately, the crosses for many of this type are now virtally at an end, if this argument is followed to its logical conclusion. Why wold anyone make any more crosses with phil or any other strict Coryopedilum hybrid, if all we can expect is a "blending" of the parents' traits that fall short of the parents? Just playing Devil's advocate. Which crosses within the Coryo section alone would you make next?
H
Howzat
Guest
If you see the Taiwanese breeders listing, you 'll find heaps of Coryo hybrids being introduced. ShinYi Orchids, Shen Liu Orchids as well as YangJi Orchids are the few Coryo hybridiser. The last two are in this forum. These people are injecting the gene of anitum into Coryo hybrids. And to date the results have been excellent, to say the least.
St Swthin has also been crossed back to rothschildianum and the resultant hybrid : Gary Romagna is no bigger than St Swithin but it has its petals more horizontal, trying to look like rothschildianum.
SlipperKing
Madd Virologist
You all remember my plant of Moustache right?
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16140&highlight=Moustache
Its to the extreme the other way, all phillie. Its philippinense on steroids with wings and jet engines ready for flight! It could make for a great starting point as for breeding but awardable? I don't think so.
Pete, have you consider breeding with this clone and if what crosses?
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16140&highlight=Moustache
Its to the extreme the other way, all phillie. Its philippinense on steroids with wings and jet engines ready for flight! It could make for a great starting point as for breeding but awardable? I don't think so.
Pete, have you consider breeding with this clone and if what crosses?
Leo Schordje
wilted blossom
I believe the point of making Moustache is exactly for vigor, and ease of bloom induction and to a lesser degree, flower count. My Moustache blooms more frequently than my St. Swithin. My Moustache is a bit more compact than my St. Swithin. Ease of bloom induction is a heritable trait, and some hybridizers rank this trait high in making their choices for breeding.
Rick, my Moustache is very similar to yours, and yes, I love it. The rich color and larger flowers than philippinense on a slightly more compact (than rothschildianum or St Swithin) plant are really nice. Whether or not a cross is awardable is a debate that has gone on for years, and AOS judges have largely proven that most crosses at some point when an exceptional clone is presented, are awardable. Definitely some crosses have a much higher percentage of progeny awarded than others. There are crosses than seem to never get awards. Should or should not get an award? Depends on what is actually presented to the judges at the time of judging. If a plant is presented at its 'perfect moment' and the judges have the right combination of donuts, pie or other sweet snack, an award might be inevitable. :evil:
I would cross Moustache with something like William Ambler for more dark rich colors, and easier bloom induction & vigor, on a slightly more compact plant than rothschildianum.
I would use any of the F1 or F2 sanderianum hybrids to bring better, out reaching petal form and bold stripes with a rounder dorsal.
I would use one of the F1 or F2 lowii hybrids or Transvaal to bring vivid color into the corypetalum type flower. The possibilities are endless.
Hey Rick, that reminded me. i think you were wondering a while ago about flower count and i meant to tell you i did get four flowers out of it once. i will try and find a picture. havent considered breeding with it. its a little crowded though from my memory?
SlipperKing
Madd Virologist
I only figured out the crowding trait a couple of years into growing/ blooming it Pete! Its a definete negative for this clone. If I where to make a cross with this "winged wonder" it would be with a lowii/ haynaldianum (long stem bloomer) or adductum/ anitum with their long stems. The low/hay cross being first choice to try and keep the flower count up.
I did post a blooming plant of Moustache X Shin Yi Pide(?), single growth + 5 flowers. It too was on the crowded side.
I did post a blooming plant of Moustache X Shin Yi Pide(?), single growth + 5 flowers. It too was on the crowded side.
B
Brian Monk
Guest
INteresting conversation, and I concur with all of the potential crosses considered. My point was simple, that pure coryo crosses still hold great potential, and I am one of those that considers vigor and ease of blooming to be (separately) in the top five reasons to make a hybrid or use a particlar parent. The others are flower form & substance, flower color, and flower count.
BTW, the next five are plant growth habit (a close sixth), time to blooming from seed (possibly also considered vigor), flower size (possibly part of flower form), known negative traits passed on by the parent (flower crippling, etc), and blooming season.
BTW, the next five are plant growth habit (a close sixth), time to blooming from seed (possibly also considered vigor), flower size (possibly part of flower form), known negative traits passed on by the parent (flower crippling, etc), and blooming season.
