MSU feed - advice

[Rick]

At this point, I am unconvinced that it even needs to be added to the MSU formula. When I used other fertilizers, I did see an improvement upon its regular addition.

I avoided Mag sulfate supplementation for years because I also knew that it was present in the "correct amount" in the MSU mix, but this years results with supplementation were shocking Ray.

Maybe something else in my system was blocking the Mg already in the MSU mix. Maybe too much calcium from extra sources or the zinc in the Keikie Pro. My fogger is on the well water which might be blowing something around the GH ??? But at least for my circumstances the Mg spike has produced awesome results.

 

[Ray]

Can't argue with your observations.

I fog with RO, so I know I'm certainly not adding anything!

 

[Carper]

Rick,

thanks for your invaluable information. A few comments to make which will all make sense I hope. I am just in the throws of completing a newly built greenhouse from brick, double glazing and a 35 mm polycarbonate roof. This is more like a conservatory than a greenhouse, but it will be very well insulated. It will have all the necessary fans, including extractors, foggers etc, and will be ready in a few weeks. However, most of my plants have been in the house, where the light is limited, humidity about 40-50%, no air movement etc but I am still getting good growth. I have thought for a while now that all my plants need these 3 considerably more and this is going to give it to them. Along with the feed I intend to give them, as discussed including foliar feeding and a few adjustments, like added bonemeal, I feel they are just going to take off! It is now all coming together after months of researching and deciding the way forward. I know there are no gurantees, but is getting exciting just trying to find out. A quick further couple of questions.
1. The feed & MgS04 you mix. Do you water the pot and foliar with the same mix? Is the foliar a mist or do you soak the leaves. My biggest fear is the crown being full of solution.
2. Once a plant spikes, do you stop foliar feeding until the stem is above the axis, so as not to damage the flower, ie wet it.
3. As for the multigrowth plants, would you not exceed my intention of feeding the MSU at 125 PPM Nitrogen, or would you go higher, say in summer.

Thanks again

Gary

 

[Rick]

Rick,

1. The feed & MgS04 you mix. Do you water the pot and foliar with the same mix? Is the foliar a mist or do you soak the leaves. My biggest fear is the crown being full of solution.
2. Once a plant spikes, do you stop foliar feeding until the stem is above the axis, so as not to damage the flower, ie wet it.
3. As for the multigrowth plants, would you not exceed my intention of feeding the MSU at 125 PPM Nitrogen, or would you go higher, say in summer.

Gary

1) The pot watering and foliar mix is the same. Many of my plants are mounted so its sometimes hard to differentiate pot from foliar feeding anyway. I used to try to differentiate feeding by subtle pH regimes, but gave up on that a few years ago since this didn't seem to do much except make things overly complex.

2) Pretty much everything gets sprayed first (pump sprayer), and then I go back through the potted stuff (including a few things in semi hydro) and water the pots. It doesn't make a difference (to me) whether something is in bract or not, although I have been trying to avoid getting water on P tigrinums in spike.

Without doing the math, I haven't converted my Tsp/gal rate to ppm N, but many of my big, aggressive multi floral paph species have grown very well without pushing the MSU rate past 1/2 tsp per gal. In fact for years I thought that the dose rate was supposed to be 1/4 tsp/gal, and that's as much as they got for the first few years I used MSU, only daring to go to the 1/2 tsp/gal rate on those warm sunny spring mornings. I have gone as high as 1tsp per gal on random early summer feedings. The multis were fine, but a handful of other species showed some leaf tip burn problems after those events. So I've backed down in general rather than playing around with making individual mixes for different groups. If I were to try to target higher N for a given group, I'd probably try a pot amendment like blood meal.

I've been monopolizing the discussion, but several other of our members have many large specimen plants in their collections that should pipe in. In particular I'd ask Uri about some of his feeding tips.

 

[Rick]

Can't argue with your observations.

I fog with RO, so I know I'm certainly not adding anything!

I was just thinking about the pleuros in my indoor box that turned purple while on the basic MSU mix, without pot supplements or getting fogged with the well water in the GH. These plants also responded very well to the MgSO4 spike.

Maybe there's a temp factor playing a role. Things do get pretty warm here in TN, and I don't really push the airconditioning in the house were the pleuro box is. Most pleuros are also temp sensitive. Sometimes I'm struggling to keep the GH from hitting the mid 90's in the summer.

Maybe the epsom salts helps keep up with higher temps.

 

[Carper]

Thanks Rick for your comments. Can anyone with large specimen plants, multis etc please feel free to add their advice/comments.

Cheers

Gary

 

[NYEric]

The only advises I would give you are: to keep your airflow and humidity up, and don't let your media over-decompose. Your new green house should help with the first 2, your maintenance program will have to cover the third. Good luck and please send us some photos.

 

[gonewild]

The size of the plant will not make much difference in how you care for it as far as water and feeding.

Each new growth on the plant has the same requirements regardless of whether there are other growth present.
Fertilizer requirements remain the same.

If you have a large specimen plant in a large pot you may need to water it more or less frequently than a smaller plant in a smaller pot. But the moisture requirement for good growth remains the same. The "skill" is to maintain the correct level in different size pots with different sized plants, and that is what comes with experience.

 

[Carper]

I feel I have picked up a large amount of information in the 2 years I have been collecting orchids. I seem to have done ok, mainly keeping paphs and phrags, and have not killed one yet so all cannot be that bad. However I am still a novice but feel now that I have a good proagramme to move forward. Over the next 12 months, I hope to achieve some very healthy plants which put on some exciting displays. Time will tell, but I will keep you posted. No doubt I will have more questions along the way!

Gary

 

[Rick]

Lance brought up a point that I was thinking about the last couple of days.

In terms of increasing the concentration of your fert mix.

Since the amount of time that the solution stays in the pot is fairly constant and rather short by standard watering methods, there is only a partial utility in increasing the concentration of the fertilizer mix. Also there is the point of diminishing returns with corresponding increase in waste.

That leads to the strategy, of fertilizing more frequently with lower concentrations of fertilizer. Hydroponic or Semi-hydroponic methods are the "purest" expressions of that method since they afford a relatively constant lowered level of nutrients. The dry methods by addition of slow or timed released granular fertilizers (a more advanced comprehensive version of the old time blood and bone meal supplements) is a similar strategy.

I've seen big award winning plants by just about every means possible. So as several others have pointed out, you just got see what works best for you.

 

[gonewild]

The MSU formula is designed to be applied with every watering. The rate that yields 125ppm Nitrogen is just about standard desired strength for most plants, not just orchids.

When applied with optimum watering practices there is not need to flush the pots with clear water. By optimum practice I mean watering with enough water to flush the pot every time the plant is watered. In a greenhouse environment this is easy but not so easy for plants growing on shelves in a house.

If your potting media is correctly designed it will allow the constant application of dilute fertilizer and the plants will always have what they need.

Trying to guess when to increase or decrease fertilizer amounts or strength is not easy and not accurate. For example when you see a plant starting to grow a new growth you may decide that is the time to increase fertilizer. But in fact maybe that species needed the nutrient supply in advance of the new growth. Some plants that go dormant actually start growing well in advance of when growth becomes visible to us.

Now if your plants do not enjoy a constant annual environment you may (will) want to change both water and fertilizer amounts and frequency depending on the environmental change.

You can make it as complicated as you want or as simple as you want.
Simple is to apply dilute but sufficient fertilizer with every watering.

 

[cnycharles]

I feel I have picked up a large amount of information in the 2 years I have been collecting orchids. I seem to have done ok, mainly keeping paphs and phrags, and have not killed one yet so all cannot be that bad. However I am still a novice but feel now that I have a good proagramme to move forward. Over the next 12 months, I hope to achieve some very healthy plants which put on some exciting displays. Time will tell, but I will keep you posted. No doubt I will have more questions along the way!

Gary

one key point to remember if you want really healthy plants that get big, is to make sure you find the healthiest plants to start with that are actively growing. there are vendors who are very well known for having active, vigorous plants that seem to jump out of the pot. these plants will have more of a reserve to make up for 'oopses' that you or others might make after acquiring the plant. you and others may have nice plants, and even if you are doing so-so with culture, they may stay looking okay for a while but not get really big, or slowly decline as time passes. since you haven't killed any plants i'm assuming that you are doing things well, but certain plants may have odd requirements, so checking around to find plants that aren't so fussy and growing the 'easier' ones will also be helpful in having large, healthy, many-flowering plants without as much struggle

 

[Carper]

Hi All,
With all your advice, the jigsaw is slowly coming together. As previously stated, I have decided on a feeding regime to fit my greenhouse and know I will always be fine tweeking it, be it watering, feeding etc. I know I need to next look at the plants I have which do feature multiple growths, but will obviously have different requirements, but this is where I decided to keep to the paphs and phrags, rather than a whole range. Also, our local orchid society, seems to only have a very limited of growers with this species. My idea was to fill this void when plants are required for the shows I intend to enter. I have gathered in the region of 70 paphs which are all growing ok, but I know most will benefit from this new approach.

Thank you all again.

Gary

 

[cnycharles]

oh, good idea! if you want to win ribbons or more in a show, grow what nobody else is growing!

 

[Carper]

Just a thought on the bonemeal with reference to the multiflorals and phrags, how much and how often do you feed this. I have read this is only a couple of times per year. I am also debating whether to reduce/stop the MgSO4 altogether in winter, even though I intend to carry on feeding the MSU at the same rate, albeit less often. Would you also feed some of the other paphs and phrags with the bonemeal?

Thanks

Gary