I never sold any "batch of sanderianum that was far from being legal"... It is simply defamatory. Please name the people who made such statement...
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I never sold any "batch of sanderianum that was far from being legal"... It is simply defamatory. Please name the people who made such statement...
P
paphjoint
Guest
Ha -- As well as the plants that you're exporting from Vietnam right? Somebody forwarded us the list -- Impressive!!
although I found that you've some gap's in Paphiopedilum taxonomy knowledge - but what the theck if it can't be sold under a name then lets sell it under another.
Legal plants Ha Ha Ha
Seems to be getting a little hostile in here.
Sand, thanks for the info, I love reading your posts.
Now, what truly is the problem about making orchid plants illegal, and thus hampering the propogation business, is that all these plants will one day be extinct in situ due to a variety of causes. Therefore, there should be free trade in the orchid flasks (I'm applying this to the US which dosn't allow the Vietnamese Paphs. technically) since collectors and breeders will one day be the only place that thse plants grow. This may not be in my lifetime, but someday it will come to pass.
So perhaps as orchid growers, rather than fighting amongst ourselves, maybe we could set an example of how not to rape Mother Earth.
And yes, to those who know me, I may sound hyppocritical. But then again, Hypocrisy is a sin we ALL are guilty of at some point in our lives.
Sand, thanks for the info, I love reading your posts.
Now, what truly is the problem about making orchid plants illegal, and thus hampering the propogation business, is that all these plants will one day be extinct in situ due to a variety of causes. Therefore, there should be free trade in the orchid flasks (I'm applying this to the US which dosn't allow the Vietnamese Paphs. technically) since collectors and breeders will one day be the only place that thse plants grow. This may not be in my lifetime, but someday it will come to pass.
So perhaps as orchid growers, rather than fighting amongst ourselves, maybe we could set an example of how not to rape Mother Earth.
And yes, to those who know me, I may sound hyppocritical. But then again, Hypocrisy is a sin we ALL are guilty of at some point in our lives.
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For the record:
This forum is much about freedom of expression, so if you have a problem with something that is said it is up to you to refute it. It is not up to me to delete it.
This forum is much about freedom of expression, so if you have a problem with something that is said it is up to you to refute it. It is not up to me to delete it.
Rick
Well-Known Member
I think we should try to quantify rarity for discussions of conservation.
For instance in my home state Tennnessee which covers about 50,000 square miles and has 95 counties (roughly 500 sqm/county), the convention used for describing rarity is as follows:
Common - found in 48 or more (50% or more) of counties
Frequent - found in 32 - 47 counties
Occasional - found in 11 - 31 counties
Infrequent - 6-10 counties
rare - <5 counties
These conventions are widely used by biologists and state/federal regulators. Also do not confuse rarity with local abundance, and read on.
The topic of "endangered" or "threatened" is based on more subjective criteria, and based more on impacts rather than rarity. For instance the Nashville crayfish is listed as Federally Endangered. It is found only in 3 counties (one watershed) in TN. At any one location you can find 1000's in a few hundred square feet, but since this species is in a fast developing area, it is considered endangered since one person with a bulldozer can wipe out millions in a good days work, and the odds are good that this can (and does) happen.
In contrast there are darter (fish) species I have collected that are found in only one watershed (in two counties) and are found in groups of a couple dozen at a time if you find the right boulder. These species only got "State watch and concern" status since the counties are rural and have very little human impacts going on. The danger of wiping these guys out is considerably lower although they have much lower local abundance than Nashville crayfish.
For instance in my home state Tennnessee which covers about 50,000 square miles and has 95 counties (roughly 500 sqm/county), the convention used for describing rarity is as follows:
Common - found in 48 or more (50% or more) of counties
Frequent - found in 32 - 47 counties
Occasional - found in 11 - 31 counties
Infrequent - 6-10 counties
rare - <5 counties
These conventions are widely used by biologists and state/federal regulators. Also do not confuse rarity with local abundance, and read on.
The topic of "endangered" or "threatened" is based on more subjective criteria, and based more on impacts rather than rarity. For instance the Nashville crayfish is listed as Federally Endangered. It is found only in 3 counties (one watershed) in TN. At any one location you can find 1000's in a few hundred square feet, but since this species is in a fast developing area, it is considered endangered since one person with a bulldozer can wipe out millions in a good days work, and the odds are good that this can (and does) happen.
In contrast there are darter (fish) species I have collected that are found in only one watershed (in two counties) and are found in groups of a couple dozen at a time if you find the right boulder. These species only got "State watch and concern" status since the counties are rural and have very little human impacts going on. The danger of wiping these guys out is considerably lower although they have much lower local abundance than Nashville crayfish.
Rick
Well-Known Member
I suspect under the above descriptions most orchids are rare to uncommon at best. Although locally they may be very abundant. Threatened and Endangered are based on human impacts to maintain a sustainable population. Some species with wide geographic distribution "common species" will probably not be locally abundant.
Orchids that are deceptive pollinators that offer no energetic reward (most orchids and probably all slippers) cannot be more common than the condition or species they are mimicking. Otherwise they will burn out their pollinator and have to resort strictly to vegetative reproduction. Pollination and seed production maintains genetic diversity and is a more efficient means for widespread dispersal.
Orchids that are deceptive pollinators that offer no energetic reward (most orchids and probably all slippers) cannot be more common than the condition or species they are mimicking. Otherwise they will burn out their pollinator and have to resort strictly to vegetative reproduction. Pollination and seed production maintains genetic diversity and is a more efficient means for widespread dispersal.
Sirius
Plant Nerd
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Pandora, I must request that you provide some sort of proof to your claims that Sanderianum is selling plants illegally. Had you bothered to read our forum rules before posting, you would have found that this forum requires proof of any accusation made like this. Our forum rules also spell out the policy for banning a forum member. In the event a member is personally attacking another member, they will recieve two warnings before being disciplined. I personally believe that posting unproven, derogatory statements falls under the category of personal attack. Perhaps you could enlighten us all with some tangible proof of your accusations?
I suppose you are going to post the list? After all, why should anyone believe you since it seems your sole purpose for joining the forum was to discredit Sanderianum?
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I must admit, I'd like to see the list as well....
Candace
Well-Known Member
Phrag, good points.
P
paphjoint
Guest
Unfortunately I can't do that -- I promised the people who forwarded me the lists to keep quiet about their origin. and you're right my sole point was to discredit Xavier --
He has been hurting people since he first showed up back in the early 90's he was just a young lad at that time.
Most of you know him from the book Orchid Fever - which is also a piece of crap especially the part in which he plays.
More recently he f.... up a French orchid forum -- believe me he really f... it up -- this guy is bad and I just thought you should know - and believe me you don't know half of it --
Roger over and out
He has been hurting people since he first showed up back in the early 90's he was just a young lad at that time.
Most of you know him from the book Orchid Fever - which is also a piece of crap especially the part in which he plays.
More recently he f.... up a French orchid forum -- believe me he really f... it up -- this guy is bad and I just thought you should know - and believe me you don't know half of it --
Roger over and out
Sirius
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And finally, some truth.
Pandora, I will spare everyone from asking you any more questions, because you aren't going to post any more on this subject, right?
You started this account to attack another member knowing from the beginning you were never going to provide any proof to back up your claims. It doesn't matter if Sanderianum did or did not do the things you said he did. At this point, you're half-attempts are doing nothing but creating more problems.
Sanderianum, if you truly have a past that warrants this kind of attention, I feel sorry for you. I hope your future posts contain verifiable statements. Or at the very least, that you make sure everyone knows that what you are saying is opinion, so that everyone can make up their own mind about the information you present. The friends of our enemies are also our enemies.
I think the forum rules make it clear enough where this thread went wrong. If you all disagree, we can continue to sort this out by presenting some facts. I think many of you dread where that might lead.
Pandora, I will spare everyone from asking you any more questions, because you aren't going to post any more on this subject, right?
You started this account to attack another member knowing from the beginning you were never going to provide any proof to back up your claims. It doesn't matter if Sanderianum did or did not do the things you said he did. At this point, you're half-attempts are doing nothing but creating more problems.
Sanderianum, if you truly have a past that warrants this kind of attention, I feel sorry for you. I hope your future posts contain verifiable statements. Or at the very least, that you make sure everyone knows that what you are saying is opinion, so that everyone can make up their own mind about the information you present. The friends of our enemies are also our enemies.
I think the forum rules make it clear enough where this thread went wrong. If you all disagree, we can continue to sort this out by presenting some facts. I think many of you dread where that might lead.
You speek with wisdom, John. 
It's true about what Sanderianum did to the french forum 2 years ago (the forum is now nevertheless very popular). I hope now it's past and will never happen here.
Please keep cool guys.
It's true about what Sanderianum did to the french forum 2 years ago (the forum is now nevertheless very popular). I hope now it's past and will never happen here.
Please keep cool guys.
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Perhaps we could know the story of the French forum?
smartie2000
Well-Known Member
I'm a little curious about the french forum. Keep in mind paul says it was two years ago...
Je parle un peu francais, but very little since I don't get the chance to use my high school french. I'd probably get lost if I looked myself
I do feel that Sanderianum is a valuable member with lots of info, both about paphs and the politics of them....
Je parle un peu francais, but very little since I don't get the chance to use my high school french. I'd probably get lost if I looked myself
I do feel that Sanderianum is a valuable member with lots of info, both about paphs and the politics of them....
What I can testify is that Xavier was co-administrator of the forum (but not the owner), and when the owner and other administrator have learnt more about him, he was fired. And then he hacked the forum some times before it was udpated and more secured, then the forum has grown.
When he was member/administrator, he was very active and provided many many cultural informations to the forum members (these infos have been removed thanks to his wish)
BUT he took pleasure to send "special" private messages when administrator, and make some jokes like porn photos and drawings in his private messages to members (I personnaly received one before I was moderator, one can say hazing) The forum was said elitist, and today it's not true...
Sirius
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Just remember that everything he has posted to date are his opinions. It is our responsibility as members of this forum to take the information somebody else posts, and interpret it with objectivity. Personally, I want to know the real source of any information given to me.
E
Ernie
Guest
Woah! Hold the phone. Who's this French Xavier person??? I was totally led to believe that Sanderianum was like some collegiate yet shoeless, twenty-something Vietnamese kid that wanders the jungles by day and browses the street markets every weekend??? Did I read too much into the posts??? Anyone else with me or am I alone? I'd like to know more about this person now so I can go back and reconsider the posts and the accuracy to which I lent them.
-Steve Jobs (Ernie)
-Steve Jobs (Ernie)
Better dust off your copy of Orchid Fever!
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Best be reading those posts again, Mr. Jobs. oke:
oke:
