Paph gratrixianum (I think)

[emydura]

I received a few seedlings from a flask. All I was told was that they were from a Vietnamese species. Now that I have flowered it, it looks like gratrixianum to me. Does anyone disagree? The last photo has my gratrixianum 'Geyserland' clone as a comparison.

 

[krisk]

I would call that a gratrixianum

 

[GuRu]

I would call that a gratrixianum

I also would do so and it is a pretty one .... P. gratrixianum is very variable so flowers can look different ....

 

[emydura]

I also would do so and it is a pretty one .... P. gratrixianum is very variable so flowers can look different ....

Thanks Rudolf. I do like this clone. The predominately white dorsal with large spots is especially striking.

 

[krisk]

Thanks Rudolf. I do like this clone. The predominately white dorsal with large spots is especially striking.

I think it’s worthy of a toothpick

 

[Murray F]

Thats a good one always like these a lot

 

[BrucherT]

Everything checks out. All the characteristics match, you were told the country of origin, I don’t see anything that can point to hybrid origin except possibly that the gratrixianum I have seen have stiffer, thicker, upright leaves — but that’s easily explained by culture. I think you’re good, and congratulations! Lovely flower. I love the turreting dorsal.

I am curious how it comes about that someone just says “these are a Vietnamese species” and hands you plants and doesn’t share the discuss’ NAME. How does that happen? Why would someone do that? It would be one thing if they shared a bunch of different species.

 

[Herbert Reisinger]

As I have already said in other discussions, gratrixianum is misidentified in cultivation. The plant you show has nothing in common with the herbarium sheet in Vienna. That's why the gratrixianum of cultivation was described as a new species and named christensonianum. True gratrixianum is a plant with 5 cm broad leaves and insigne-like flowers.....

 

[GuRu]

Herbert, I learnt here in the past ... it depends whom you will follow.
- 'Die Orchidee' Vol. 3(06)2017 lists 3 varieties of P. gratrixianum ... var. gratrixianum, var. christensonianum and P. sulivongii ...... Paph. daoense is listed there as true species.

- KEW Science lists Paph. gratrixianum as a species with 3 varieties ... var. gratrixianum, var. daoense and var. guangdongense. There are photos of P. gratrixianum and I personally can't see that they resemble or match to P. insigne a lot. ..... Paph. christensonianum is there listed as true species.

-O.Gruss in 'Paphiopedilum Südostasiatische Frauenschuhe' Band 2/volume 2 accepts Paph gratrixianum with one fma. galherianum, and the varieties. ... var. cangyaense and var. guangdongense. Paph. christensonianum and Paph. daoense are listed as true species.

But you are right, Paph. christensonianum has at least in the newer publications the status of a true species.

 

[jtrmd]

I had one that looked just like that. Got it as gratrixanum and was awarded as gratrixanum. IDK Mine is dead. But who has pieces of it anymore.

 

[emydura]

I think it’s worthy of a toothpick

I have 4 other NFS seedlings which won't flower this season. I might do a sib cross in future.

 

[emydura]

Herbert, I learnt here in the past ... it depends whom you will follow.
- 'Die Orchidee' Vol. 3(06)2017 lists 3 varieties of P. gratrixianum ... var. gratrixianum, var. christensonianum and P. sulivongii ...... Paph. daoense is listed there as true species.

- KEW Science lists Paph. gratrixianum as a species with 3 varieties ... var. gratrixianum, var. daoense and var. guangdongense. There are photos of P. gratrixianum and I personally can't see that they resemble or match to P. insigne a lot. ..... Paph. christensonianum is there listed as true species.

-O.Gruss in 'Paphiopedilum Südostasiatische Frauenschuhe' Band 2/volume 2 accepts Paph gratrixianum with one fma. galherianum, and the varieties. ... var. cangyaense and var. guangdongense. Paph. christensonianum and Paph. daoense are listed as true species.

So depending on who you believe, my plant is either Paph christensonianum or Paph gratrixianum var christensonianum?

 

[jtrmd]

So depending on who you believe, my plant is either Paph christensonianum or Paph gratrixianum var christensonianum?

they will change it again before you put var. christensonianum on the tag lol

 

[GuRu]

So depending on who you believe, my plant is either Paph christensonianum or Paph gratrixianum var christensonianum?

David, at least the left flower in the last photo looks a lot like this.

they will change it again before you put var. christensonianum on the tag lol

Maybe you are right.

 

[emydura]

David, at least the left flower in the last photo looks a lot like this.

The left flower is the other clone (Geyserland).

 

[GuRu]

The left flower is the other clone (Geyserland).

David, at the moment I'm not very familiar with the differences which separate P. (var) christensonianum. I will try to find it out in the afternoon reading in Olaf's book and maybe this can enlighten us.

 

[GuRu]

Meanwhile I read in Olaf's book and what shall I say ...it's very confusing reading about 2 species and the majority of their traits seem to coincide. But in the end, I found 4 traits which seem to make the difference ... at least in my eyes.

________________________________________________________Paph. (var.) christensonianum_________________________________Paph. gratrixianum

size (diameter) of the flower_______________________________________7 – 9 cm_________________________________________________9 – 12 cm

width of the leaves_______________________________________________2 – 2,5 cm__________________________________________________4 – 5 cm

stance of the leaves_______________________________________half upward – upwards______________________________outstretched – half upwards

tip of the leaves___________________________________________often unclear 3-pointed________________________________________mostly 2-pointed

Sorry for the underlining but without it the software didn't show my 'table' in the end the same way it was in the draft.
I hope tis helps ..... at least a bit.

 

[emydura]

Meanwhile I read in Olaf's book and what shall I say ...it's very confusing reading about 2 species and the majority of their traits seem to coincide. But in the end, I found 4 traits which seem to make the difference ... at least in my eyes.

________________________________________________________Paph. (var.) christensonianum_________________________________Paph. gratrixianum

size (diameter) of the flower_______________________________________7 – 9 cm_________________________________________________9 – 12 cm

width of the leaves_______________________________________________2 – 2,5 cm__________________________________________________4 – 5 cm

stance of the leaves_______________________________________half upward – upwards______________________________outstretched – half upwards

tip of the leaves___________________________________________often unclear 3-pointed________________________________________mostly 2-pointed

Sorry for the underlining but without it the software didn't show my 'table' in the end the same way it was in the draft.
I hope tis helps ..... at least a bit.

Thanks for that Rudolf. Based on the flower and leaf measurements, both of my clones would be var. christensonianum, The measurements are bang on. I don't really understand the pointed leaf characteristic.

 

[emydura]

I am curious how it comes about that someone just says “these are a Vietnamese species” and hands you plants and doesn’t share the discuss’ NAME. How does that happen? Why would someone do that? It would be one thing if they shared a bunch of different species.

I was going to respond to this via PM, but I seem to be unable to do this with you.

 

[GuRu]

Thanks for that Rudolf. ......... I don't really understand the pointed leaf characteristic.

David, I think this is meant .... the middle vein of the leaf forms a third point/tip as you can see in my photo. You can also call it 3 teeth. But not all leave show this characteristic but the mayority does (at least of my plant). But I admit I havn't counted.