Paph. sanderanium question

[NYEric]

Non-sterilized soils that is.

 

[gonewild]

Non-sterilized soils that is.

The USDA prohibits importation of soil.

 

[NYEric]

Of course.

 

[Tony]

My sanderianum seedling is my fastest growing multi. I grow it in fine-grade aliflor with a generous helping of oyster shell mixed in, and also top-dress with oyster shell every month or so. I fertilize weekly with Dyna-gro 7-8-6 and Superthrive.

 

[Rick Barry]

Eric,

Soil, in the case of sanderianum, is a limestone cliff face with bits of humus and leaf litter. Difficult enough to duplicate, but impossible to import.

Rick

 

[NYEric]

Eric,

Soil, in the case of sanderianum, is a limestone cliff face with bits of humus and leaf litter. Difficult enough to duplicate, but impossible to import.

Rick

Then why can't you make the same humus and leaf litter from domestic samples of plants that the native sanderanium grow in. If you use limestone in the media then the only differences would be the water and any microorganisms. Water quality varies greatly between municipalities and even city blocks in the U.S. Did anyone do a chemical analysis of the water where [?] sanderainum comes from?

 

[kentuckiense]

Then why can't you make the same humus and leaf litter from domestic samples of plants that the native sanderanium grow in. If you use limestone in the media then the only differences would be the water and any microorganisms. Water quality varies greatly between municipalities and even city blocks in the U.S. Did anyone do a chemical analysis of the water where [?] sanderainum comes from?

Limestone can vary from place to place and domestic samples of said plants are probably pretty hard to track down.

 

[NYEric]

Next time in that neighborhood I'll scoop up a baggie full of soil and humus and pack it back home!

 

[Rick]

Limestone can vary from place to place and domestic samples of said plants are probably pretty hard to track down.

Not that long ago Averyanov wrote an article for Orchids magazine that indicated that P emersonii and P hangianum were ecologically separated on the basis of the type of limestone that they are found on.

But I think potting mixes are overemphasized with regard to culturing slippers. Once out of the wild we just have to come up with a good surogate.

I think that the air environment is more important to sanderianum than the substrate it attaches to once its in the greenhouse. That's not to say that potting mix is irrelavent, but I think its more the fine tuning after more significant parts of the program.

 

[Rick]

Then why can't you make the same humus and leaf litter from domestic samples of plants that the native sanderanium grow in. If you use limestone in the media then the only differences would be the water and any microorganisms. Water quality varies greatly between municipalities and even city blocks in the U.S. Did anyone do a chemical analysis of the water where [?] sanderainum comes from?

When you refer to the water where sanderianum comes from I guess you are talking about the rain water dripping off the rocks and percholating through the moss and humus near the plants.

Actually that has been done to a limited extent (ususally only pH and conductivity..TDS.. is measured in the field). One can also make inferences from looking at what happens to rain water as it driblles over limestone in this country too. The results are pretty variable depending on the source of limestone and the duration and magnitude of watering. But in generally you are looking at pH's from mid 6's to mid 7's with fairly noticilble conductivity (maybe around 150 or more) and hardess (probably less than 80 mg/L).

 

[silence882]

I've found two articles that give good descriptions of the habitat of Paph. sanderianum:

Fowlie, J.A. "Malaya Revisited. XXXIV: Paphiopedilum Sanderianum on Limestone and Dolomite Pinnacles of Gunong Mulu National Park, Sarawak." Orchid Digest 51, no. 4 (Oct/Dec 1987): 182-86.

• "This species enjoys at least two separate and distinctive habitats, both on limestone and dolomite within the boundaries of Gunong Mulu National Park. The first habitat is atop limestone cliffs over rivers in bright positions on the limestone fifty feet above the river. In such situations the river had cut down through stone and formed deep chasms with unclimbable ninety-degree rock walls on either side of the river. The plants are loosely rooted on the stone, the flower scapes of fifteen inches arching out over the abyss and bearing two or three flowers with their three-foot-long petals dangling down in the gorge. In this location they are accompanied by Paphiopedilum lowii which grows similarly on the base of trees and flowers the end of March. The latter has a narrower, longer and darker leaf and favors trees or the base of tree trunks hanging out over the gorges. Elevations of some 300 to 1,500 feet above sea level and daytime spring temperatures of 78 degrees Fahrenheit to 83 degrees Fahrenheit maximum with good air movement have been reported at midday in March. Paphiopedilum sanderianum is in loose bud for a first or second week of April, maixmum flowering season in this location. But only a small percentage flowers per year of the colonies."
• "The second habitat is atop limestone buttresses in the park between 300 and 1,500 feet above sea level. Here, it grows.... protected by the stone from the sweep of fires during periodic droughts every ten years or so. The limestone has eroded irregularly, leaving steep-sided ridges and hills exposed to the full fury of the winter monsoon from the north-northeast in November, December, January, and subsiding in February. After a brief drier interlude in March and April, convectional storms will come off the South China Sea almost every afternoon, and continue in May and June with a second slightly dry period at the end of July through September. Since Gunong Mulu formations are the second highest in Borneo (Gunong Mulu rises to 7,830 feet, or 2,376 meters), they effectively cause moisture-laden air masses moving from off the South China Sea to have to rise abruptly, and in so doing, cool them reapidly, which looses tremendous quantities of rainfall in districts west and north of Gunong Api and Gunong Mulu. Over two hundred inches per year is not uncommon here. This is why the vestigial species is confined here."
• "Moss grows lithophytically over the surface of the limestone pinnacles, and sinlight striking it causes blue-green algae within to manufacture nitrogenous solutions which feed the roots of the ladyslipper with the next condensation period. This may either be rainfall or a mist-like condensation which crowns the hills in the evenings or after rains, or drips off the leaves of the trees."

Fischer, J. "Borneo Calls, Exploring for Orchids in Their Native Habitats Sheds New Light on Their Cultural Needs." Orchids 69, no. 1 (Jan 2000).

• grows on limestone outcrops, generally east-facing
• roots spread out on the rock and cling to the moist outer layer, sometimes exposed to the air and sometimes surrounded by moss
• rarely found growing on the sides of trees along with P. lowii
• light 700-1000 fc duing most of the day, can spike to 4000 at times
• rainfall pH 6.0-6.4
• blooms mid-april to mid-june
• soil: pH 7.3-7.5, nitrogen 50ppm, calcium 142ppm, magnesium 26ppm, potassium 4ppm, phosphorous virtually 0

--Stephen

 

[Rick]

Very nice info Stephen.

Dennis D'Alesandro reports lower pH (about 6.5), but that could be after a big rain flush.

The calcium and magnesium values calculate to a hardness of over 450 ppm as CaCO3!!

Thats very crusty pore water, but should be very low in sodium too.

 

[NYEric]

That's the secret!

 

[johnndc]

Interesting, the low light levels - OrchidWeb says on their web site as well that sanderianum's do well in phal level lighting - I thought that sounded kind of low, but the fc levels sure sound low in that description above.

 

[Rick]

Interesting, the low light levels - OrchidWeb says on their web site as well that sanderianum's do well in phal level lighting - I thought that sounded kind of low, but the fc levels sure sound low in that description above.

I've tried more exposed places in my GH too, expecting them to enjoy light levesl that most multis enjoy, but the place were they do best for me is low and shaded in the gh in direct access to the highest and most humid air flow.

 

[Heather]

These guys seem to have the growing of this species down pat.
Scroll down to the bottom for some looongggg petals.

http://x4.net.vnu.edu.tw/~tbgweb/cgi-bin/topic.cgi?forum=62&topic=2479&show=0

Note the interesting way he has "caged" the leaves upright. Space saving technique, perhaps?

 

[smartie2000]

I would think the caging is to keep the leaves from touching the petals cuz they stop growing after they touch something right?
Someone translate the Chinese...I'm an illiterate chinese

 

[IdahoOrchid]

Check out this article series. There are three total but only the first two have been preserved.

http://www.nascentorchids.com/Library/sandchron/Intro.html

A fourth one is planned in the next while, according to the author.

 

[Heather]

I think Tom (Elpaninaro) showed up again over at SOF recently, someone should try to get him over here, I don't have his email though. These are several years old but full of useful information.

 

[paphioland]

Supposedly very hard to get seed.