Phalaenopsis violacea var. alba 'Kate' HCC/AOS

[Heather]

Paphman-phal violaceas should be THRIVING in hot and humid weather, fyi

I was thinking the same thing - this is why I cannot grow them - no humidity. :sob:

 

[Sirius]

Pete,

I was trying to be sympathetic to your situation. I never meant to cause you frustration, but you seem intent on getting frustrated with me.

also "whatever their background" is complete crap. who the hell wants a plant that nobody knows what it is. if i have a P. sangii and everybody says its a hybrid, but we dont know exactly what it is, then, to me, it is the most useless plant there is. liking plants despite "whatever their background" is for windowsill growers who buy a plant at home depot every now and then. if i just wanted "great looking orchids" and didnt care about their pedigree, i would just buy ten dollar plants at whole foods that have brightly colored flowers and a tag that reads " Phal. exotic hybrid"

The response above is the response of a person who wants to belittle someone else. Your intention may not have been to call everyone who owns an unlabeled plant an amateur, but that's exactly what you did. The arrogant tone of your message triggered an angry emotional response in me, but since I am trying to be a calmer, more rational conversationalist on the internet, I will keep my discourse civil.

Your plant should never have been awarded. Even if there is no micholitzii in the plant at all, the lip is defective on multiple flowers. The lip should be oval shaped with smooth edges. It's that way on every other TRUE violacea, of award quality, on the planet. And yet, yours was awarded even though the lips are triangular, winged, and fringed around the edges. There is no justifiable excuse for this, unless AOS judging allows for a certain amount of defect in the flowers of any given species up for judging.

wow, sirius. i could care less about getting awards. so the judges potentially missed something. perhaps it went to a team without a phal expert. i have no clue, i was not present at judging. the AOS certainly has its flaws but i would argue that you are in the wrong to unfairly judge the society that you are not even affiliated with and likely only know "what you hear" about them. as far as your cynical reputable breeder comment, i have visited his nursery, spent a lot of time with him and his plants and taiwan, and just contacted him directly and he assured me that in his stock, he did two generations of breeing, before releasing these flask, and then i did another. so thats 3 generations at least where no micholitzii was introduced.
furthermore, i take personal offense at your comment about "n the future, maybe us "windowsill" growers can help you recoup the costs of your flask purchases that don't quite work out."- ill be damned if some random internet personality is going to call me out for some bs that is compelely uncalled for. I go above and beyond to constantly offer high quality, correctly labeled plants at a more than fair price.
maybe in ten years all of your plants will be dead, but not mine. i have many plants in my nursery that are well over ten years old, some closer to 20.
and for the record i wasnt trying to "belittle" the windowsill grower who buys unlabeled plants and doesnt care about pedigree. without these people the orchid industry would be dead. however, orchids are my life. my fun, my work, my research (currently pursuing a PhD) and i actually consider them more than "pretty flowers"

If one does not care for awards, then why submit a plant for judging? That's rhetorical, no answer is needed.

I don't align myself with the AOS by choice, because I think they are poorly run, dysfunctional organization. I don't even have to argue my opinion of the matter, because that's exactly what it is; an opinion. If you want to hear the reasons behind my opinion, I can start another thread, but I don't truly believe you care to know what those reasons are, so I will not. Don't let my opinion bother you, because you don't care for awards either, right?

I was actually offering to buy some of your unknown parentage violacea hybrids since you seem to think they are "the most worthless plants," and I do value them. It was a serious purchase offer, from a person who would truly appreciate a great plant even if it wasn't properly identified. At this point, I think we both know I am not going to be buying anything from you, so this is no longer an issue.

You posted your plant, have been given at least one proper and reputable opinion that the plant has been crossed with micholitzii, and seem to want to vent your frustration at me instead of the breeder who may have fraudulently passed mislabeled plants to you, and the AOS that failed to point out its problems. I wish you congratulations on furthering your education to the highest levels, and good fortune with your future breeding projects.

I am going to go back to tending my orchids. If you choose to continue this discussion with yet more posts venting at me instead of the responsible parties, I can't promise that my newly minted, nice guy personality will respond next time. I am quite unskilled at keeping my temper moderated, so it's probably best to label me as a work in progress, and ignore me if I frustrate you with my inability to properly communicate my feelings.

I hope we all have a better week ahead of us.

 

[Fabrice]

lol

I agree with you Sirius but please, "keep your calm" It's just a question about orchids.

@labskaus: I totally disagree with you. If I understand your point of view, a judge can do mistake and give an AM because he didn't know??? Is it a joke?

The role of a judge, it's precisely to know the standard and botanical description of the judged plant. If not, anyone can become a judge? You're right?
It's not serious.

 

[Pete]

If one does not care for awards, then why submit a plant for judging? That's rhetorical, no answer is needed.

like ive said, i think multiple times in this thread, i did NOT exhibit the plant for judging, a friend brought it in. i repeat, i dont care about getting awards.

 

[ronan]

like ive said, i think multiple times in this thread, i did NOT exhibit the plant for judging, a friend brought it in. i repeat, i dont care about getting awards.

this is just a very small part of sirius talk...you'd better apologize to him, than answer to something that were not a question. he tried to be very kind while you were upset...
btw we can't know everything, but we can learn...

there's is a threat in this forum (about the first AQ in thaiwan) where you will find a part of the story on violacea alba/ penang violacea and michael ooi :http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14007&highlight=bruno&page=6 see answer 55.

then simply read the last part of this text (starting with "maybe") from m. ooi:
http://www.toga.org.tw/eng/article.php?id=26

i find it very interesting that in such sowing we still can find 1/50 plants with old parentage caracteristics!

 

[labskaus]

lol
@labskaus: I totally disagree with you. If I understand your point of view, a judge can do mistake and give an AM because he didn't know??? Is it a joke?

The role of a judge, it's precisely to know the standard and botanical description of the judged plant. If not, anyone can become a judge? You're right?
It's not serious.

Fabrice, the judges I know are all humans. Humans make mistakes. That's a fact. A team of jugdes should combine the brains of a bunch of humans to create a pool of extensive orchid knowledge. Since the judges are humans, the combined knowledge can vary in depth and width, that's just another fact.
If you go to visit a large orchid show, would you be able to evaluate every orchids name in the show, check labels and verify names? Paphs yes, Phals yes, but what about Aerangis, Oncidium, Pleurothallis? You might even be able to safely identifiy Phal crosses, but how good are you at Dendrobium or Vanda hybrids?
How much qualification do you ask for to become a judge?
Even a highly qualified professional breeder in a team might overlook that problem. Just because he might be the worlds best Cymbidium breeder he still won't know everything about Vanda hybrids. You can't completely cover everything in a team of judges. And you just can't check the identity of every odd species during a judging session. Not enough trained taxonomists at hand, and the major part of the University library might be missing as well.
The book of Sweet might be there to check the lip shape of a violacea, but then along comes a Stelis... And next a green complex Paph.
Judges are just humans.

 

[Pete]

thanks for the links, ronan.

 

[Fabrice]

Fabrice, the judges I know are all humans. Humans make mistakes. That's a fact. A team of jugdes should combine the brains of a bunch of humans to create a pool of extensive orchid knowledge. Since the judges are humans, the combined knowledge can vary in depth and width, that's just another fact.
If you go to visit a large orchid show, would you be able to evaluate every orchids name in the show, check labels and verify names? Paphs yes, Phals yes, but what about Aerangis, Oncidium, Pleurothallis? You might even be able to safely identifiy Phal crosses, but how good are you at Dendrobium or Vanda hybrids?
How much qualification do you ask for to become a judge?
Even a highly qualified professional breeder in a team might overlook that problem. Just because he might be the worlds best Cymbidium breeder he still won't know everything about Vanda hybrids. You can't completely cover everything in a team of judges. And you just can't check the identity of every odd species during a judging session. Not enough trained taxonomists at hand, and the major part of the University library might be missing as well.
The book of Sweet might be there to check the lip shape of a violacea, but then along comes a Stelis... And next a green complex Paph.
Judges are just humans.

It's your point of view. Not mine.

I agree with you for a rare genus that the team of judges could see just once in lifetime. Yes!
But for a "classical" violacea alba, your explanation is not admissible. In the team, at least one personn (and probably more!) must be able to judge the genus Phalaenopsis, what is a very common genus.
If not, there's really a problem of competence. Or maybe is there business influence for some judgements...?oke:
What is sure, it's not the first mistake of the AOS.

 

[bigleaf]

is it possible that the AOS make such mistake? :sob:

It's not the first time and will not be the last. It’s disappointing and frustrating that a indigo violacea is to be awarded as integrated hybrid. If that’s the case, then don’t award it as a species.

Take a look for yourself.
http://speciesidentificationtaskforce.blogspot.com/search/label/Phalaenopsis

Scroll down to

Phalaenopsis violacea var. coerulea award# 20106004 has been confirmed to be Phalaenopsis violacea (intergrade hybrid) by SITF (Nov 2010). This plant displays characteristics of both P. violacea and P. bellina and it is impossible to tell with the current information available if these characteristics are the result of line breeding or dubious parentage (mixing of P. violacea and P. bellina).

And scroll down further - you will see a Phal bellina alba confirmed.

If the same committee commented that we cannot easily tell between violacea and bellina - then how is this committee to confirm that this Phal bellina alba stands true ?

 

[Ernie]

I find it interesting that there are several phals in the SITF page linked. The discussion is going towards 'phals are so common, judges should know them in and out', BUT breeders are striving to make species "better" so they use tricks such as we're discussing here to "improve" their flowers. I do believe there are obvious attempts at deception coupled with complications of taxonomic rearrangement (bellina and violacea in the case of Al Pickrel's coerulea flower).

 

[bigleaf]

There are deceptions on some levels but we will never know for sure. Many breeders (backyard hybridizers) in Taiwan do not know better. Specifically, I am referring to a nursery who clones plants. They are great growers and can clone novelty phalaenopsis very well. But the owner probably has elementary school education so I don't expect him to read up on a phalaenopsis species book in English.
Phal Penang Violacea was registered in 1987 by Ooi. It's been 24 years - and lots of hybrid, generations have been made. We have no way of knowing how many times the original Phal Penang Violacea has been bred back to Phal violacea (and possibly bellina).

I believe that Indigo violacea from Nortons are pure line-bred violacea. Original plants were gifts from Michael Ooi - they appear to be wild collected and it was years later that Phal bellina was reclassified as a new species.

If you see Phal Samera - breeding of bellina coerulea x violacea indigo - most have very distinct bellina (green, white, indigo) look. There will always be one or two exceptions. But I am certain of the Norton's indigo violacea breeding is because line breed - selective breeding can bring out desirable traits.

I don't believe the appearance of round vs narrow leaves - and the width of petals would be enough to distinguish two species that are closely related. Phal gigantea can have narrow, or broad leaves. Fragrance is subjective, and based on what? How do we know if Phal bellina that we have in cultivation is not at one time mixed with violacea?

If AOS is to award this indigo violacea to be a hybrid, that creates an inconsistency with previously awarded violacea indigo type - which should all be viewed as hybrid.