Prime Agra New vs. Old

[gonewild]

The materials he did his side by side study with are: TWFKI (a Taiwanese product), Aliflor, PrimeAgra and Stalite. He did not use Hydrotron or lava in any of his testing that I could find.

It has been a while since I read Rays articles. I think somewhere he made mention of lava and that it did not wick enough to qualify for testing. I could be mistaken though.

In any case I'll suggest that lava does not wick enough to be used as a traditional s/h media. If you use the right size lava pebbles it will work great as a media. But be prepared to water frequently. If you do this you will be growing hydroponically. Can't call it s/h because Ray owns that trademark I hear.

 

[SlipperFan]

I don't use lava rock for S/H, but I do have several orchids from the Catt, Vanda and Den families in it. I find that the surface with all it's little holes hold quite a lot of water, but the chunkiness lets a lot of air circulate through the root system. These plants seem to like it. (I'm using the red lava rock from landscaping companies -- rinse it well before I use it.)

 

[bwester]

Maybe Blake's got some he'll part with.:evil:

Blake has quite a bit, but i felt that using it as ground cover for my GH at least gave me a partial feeling that i got something for my money.

 

[gonewild]

I did some comparison tests between the New and Old PrimeAgra.

Here are my test results.....

My tap water is 332 ppm.
My RO water is 18 ppm.
My fertilizer solution is 538 ppm.

New PrimeAgra soaked, 25 liter box of fine grade PA was soaked in about 50 liters of tap water for a period of about 6 weeks:
The water it soaked in now measures 1254 ppm.

Both New and Old PrimeAgra soaked for 48 hours in tap water and rinsed then used in pots with seedlings for about 6 weeks grown side by side and watered with fertilizer solution daily:
New PrimeAgra reservoir water = 851 ppm
Old PrimeAgra reservoir water = 412 ppm

New and Old PrimeAgra soaked for about 6 weeks in tap water and used with new seedlings for 1 week, watered several times daily with RO water:
New PrimeAgra reservoir water = 576 ppm
Old PrimeAgra reservoir water = 284 ppm

Old PrimeAgra in pots with seedlings for 8 months watered daily with fertilizer solution:
Reservoir water = 448 ppm

 

[Candace]

Lance, you do prewash your media, don't you? I know I wash my hydroton and primeagra many times, until the water runs clear.

A couple of things...
1) I think your fertilizer solution tds is high. I flush with pure R.O. water often and I try to keep my tds in the 150 range. Yours is significantly higher than mine.???

2) If you don't prewash your media until it runs clear this will increase your tds.
3) If you DO prewash your media well, this is an interesting result.

 

[gonewild]

Lance, you do prewash your media, don't you? I know I wash my hydroton and primeagra many times, until the water runs clear.

Yes. I soak the PA in water until I use it. Then before use I rinse it until it is clear.

A couple of things...
1) I think your fertilizer solution tds is high. I flush with pure R.O. water often and I try to keep my tds in the 150 range. Yours is significantly higher than mine.???

My fertilizer is carefully where I want it. I use MSU at a N rate of about 100 ppm. Is your total tds 150 or is that your nitrogen level? I want my N level to be at 100 at all times. I rarely flush with pure RO water.

2) If you don't prewash your media until it runs clear this will increase your tds.

It should not increase the tds. The media should not come with soluable salts. But as I said I do soak and rinse and in my notes you will read that it is pre soaked.

3) If you DO prewash your media well, this is an interesting result.

Yes! What the result shows is that the New PA has more salts under the same conditions as the old PA. I did side by side comparisons, the media was prepared using the same methods and one result was:
New PrimeAgra reservoir water = 851 ppm
Old PrimeAgra reservoir water = 412 ppm
The only source for the extra content is the New PA.

I have just completed these measurements and have not really thought the results through. But I can see where this could be a problem, especially if a person relies on wicking for all the watering of the plant (I don't). The new PA may require a lot more flushing. But it also should not be leaching salts as it seems to be doing based on my measurements.

 

[bwester]

Do you mean the plants went from healthy to dead in 30 days?
--Correct. All had new roots when potted too.
How quickly did the first plants die? And by dead do you mean "dead"?
--The first one was dead as a doornail in a week. I took it as a fluke, then more and more......
Was your experiment limited to paphs and phrags or did other genera die as well?
--no, catts, bifrenaria, angraecum.... fairly wide range of plants. All met with the same results.
Did plants die faster or slower between large and small pots?
--smaller pots died faster, taller pots slower, which makes sense.
How many plants were affected?
--all in all a little over 50
Did you move any established plants from the old PA to the new PA?
--yes, they hated it too, took longer to rot though
Do you use RO water?
--yes
A few more questions....

How did you treat the new PA before you used it?
--thoroughly washed and soaked with KLN overnight
Did you soak it or in any way wash it?
--yes
How often did you water the plants in the new PA?
--when they dried out ever couple days.
Did you get any feedback from Ray about your problem?
--no, he ignored my emails..

 

[NYEric]

To PA or not to PA

Wow. bwebster, I'm sorry to read about all the problems w/ PA you had. I personally dont think straight PA is the way to go. The plants that I'm having the most problems w/ actually came from s/h growers. I hope a large grower [also independent, i.e. no financial gain from the results] would do a [long term] comparison w/ diff mixes.

 

[Candace]

Lance, my total is 150. I've always been warned about going higher increases leaf tip burn and die back. Since my greenhouse is bursting at the seams with healthy, blooming orchids I'm probably not going to mess with a good thing for me.

I would recommend flushing occasionally with straight R.O. I would think this should help keep the tds lower.

Do you heavily flush the pots when you water or fill the resevoirs?

I guess this means you'd better watch your new babies closely. Or send them to me, I'd make a good mother, I promise.oke:

Blake, I'm sorry to hear about you losing so many plants. I don't want to rub salt in wounds by saying this, but is there a reason you switched over so many plants into it at once? Do you still have some of the old PA you're using?

 

[gonewild]

How often did you water the plants in the new PA?
--when they dried out ever couple days.

During the short time the plants began to die....

Did you flush the pots with RO water?
or
Did you flush the pots with fertilizer solution?
or
Did you not flush the pots at alll and simply add water as needed?

 

[gonewild]

Wow. bwebster, I'm sorry to read about all the problems w/ PA you had. I personally dont think straight PA is the way to go. The plants that I'm having the most problems w/ actually came from s/h growers. I hope a large grower [also independent, i.e. no financial gain from the results] would do a [long term] comparison w/ diff mixes.

I doubt that a large independent grower will ever do a test of PrimeAgra. The material is too costly for large scale use. Commercial growers tend to test materials that may be a cheaper source for product components. Tests have been done forever to compare different mixes and the results almost always point to the fact that the mix content is nowhere near as important as is the growing methods of the grower.

Eric, can you outline the problems you are having with plants that came from s/h growers?

 

[gonewild]

Lance, my total is 150. I've always been warned about going higher increases leaf tip burn and die back. Since my greenhouse is bursting at the seams with healthy, blooming orchids I'm probably not going to mess with a good thing for me.

I have no doubt your plants are growing great. How do you measure the 150?
How do you apply fertilizer? How much fertilizer per gallon?

I would recommend flushing occasionally with straight R.O. I would think this should help keep the tds lower.

Please understand, I am not growing my plants using the resivoir/wicking feature associated with the s/h method. My plants get several irrigations daily and this keeps the pots constantly flushed.

Do you heavily flush the pots when you water or fill the resevoirs?

I think maybe you are missing the point. Reguardless of how the pots are flushed the new PA has 2 times the tds as compared to the old PA. The side by side tests showed this as a result, all pots are flushed or not flushed exactly the same.

I guess this means you'd better watch your new babies closely. Or send them to me, I'd make a good mother, I promise.oke:

I always watch my plants closely. I'm not having problems with the PrimeAgra, new or old. But thanks for the offer to adopt the babies.

I did these tests because Blake blamed the new PA for his plant loss. As far as I'm concerned the old PA is one of the best growing medias I have found in my lifetime of growing. I'm not convinced the true s/h method with reservoir is the best method to grow plants and that may be where Blake got into trouble.

I'm am not condemning the new PA. But based on Blake's experience and now with the tests I've done it appears it should not be used exactly like the old PA. The salt levels are not high enough to be a problem in my culture. But my measurements support Blake's claim and believe me that is not the results I was looking for.

Blake, I'm sorry to hear about you losing so many plants. I don't want to rub salt in wounds by saying this, but is there a reason you switched over so many plants into it at once? Do you still have some of the old PA you're using?

I'm not trying to answer for Blake but it is my understanding he was very happy with the old PA.

 

[Candace]

I use a TDS reader. I use many different types of fertilizers but it usually works out to 1/4 to 1/2 tsp. per gallon.

If you aren't using resevoirs this isn't s/h . You are using regular pots with holes at the bottom? If so, this is watering frequently, but not a constant resevoir of water that the roots sit in(which Ray coined as s/H). Maybe I'm incorrectly remembering that you stated you grew in S/H.

If you're flushing with heavily fertilized water twice daily, I'd like to see what happens when you flush with R.O. water occasionally. It doesn't suprise my your tds readings high since your water is so high in tds to start with.

Why do you feel you have to water with fertilizer upon every watering??

 

[Candace]

Yes, I know Blake was happy with the old PA. But, it's smart that when switching over to any newer medium that you take it slowly and experiment with a few plants to see what happens. Not 50 at once.

 

[kinte]

I know Blake personally and I am an avid S/H grower, 95% of my potted plants are in the old S/H and I have not had any problems. Based on Blakes findings I was and still am very reluctant to use the new S/H on its own. I have been the recipiend of a lot of Blakes new S/H and have yet to start moving plants. I am waiting until it warms up a bit. I have moved a few but I have used a 50-50 mix of old S/H and new S/H. I am not seeing any problems so far. I plan to place a large order with a different company in the next month they have what seems to be primeAgra also. I had them send me samples and it seems to be the same so i plan to go that route.

 

[Candace]

Hi Kinte,
Glad to see you. I thought about e-mailing you about this thread. I agree you're right about going slow with it and making sure you like it before taking the leap. Do, post your observations.


Hey, Blake I thought you said it went on your floor:>

 

[kinte]

hey Candace, I joined around the same time you did but I suck at growing paphs and phrags, I cant get them to rebloom so i have shyed away from this forum. I got the email about the contest and logged back on and started looking around and this was the 1st post I came across so of course i had to read it

 

[Heather]

Kinte - welcome back!
Um...you should stick around - you might figure out how to grow them better. :wink:

 

[IdahoOrchid]

I did some comparison tests between the New and Old PrimeAgra.

Here are my test results.....

My tap water is 332 ppm.
My RO water is 18 ppm.
My fertilizer solution is 538 ppm.

New PrimeAgra soaked, 25 liter box of fine grade PA was soaked in about 50 liters of tap water for a period of about 6 weeks:
The water it soaked in now measures 1254 ppm.

Both New and Old PrimeAgra soaked for 48 hours in tap water and rinsed then used in pots with seedlings for about 6 weeks grown side by side and watered with fertilizer solution daily:
New PrimeAgra reservoir water = 851 ppm
Old PrimeAgra reservoir water = 412 ppm

New and Old PrimeAgra soaked for about 6 weeks in tap water and used with new seedlings for 1 week, watered several times daily with RO water:
New PrimeAgra reservoir water = 576 ppm
Old PrimeAgra reservoir water = 284 ppm

Old PrimeAgra in pots with seedlings for 8 months watered daily with fertilizer solution:
Reservoir water = 448 ppm

Coupla ??'s for you Lance:

Was the primeagra you used fresh out of the box at the start of the test or was it recycled?

Have you tried doing a cycling rinse: soak for a period of time, rinse, soak, rinse for x cycles?

Your fertilizer solution is 538 ppm. The new PA test above indicated 851 ppm for a net GAIN of 313 ppm. The old indicated 412 ppm for a net LOSS of 126. Your 8 month test indicates 448 ppm, again for a net LOSS of 90. Do you have a hypothosis for that?

 

[gonewild]

All very good questions, bear with me...

I'm not trying to prove any point about culture, we are here to discuss the possibility that the new PA is extremely different from the old PA.

I use a TDS reader. I use many different types of fertilizers but it usually works out to 1/4 to 1/2 tsp. per gallon.

Does your tds meter read in ppm or another scale?
1/4 tsp per gallon of MSU(13-3-15+) yields 195 ppm.

If you aren't using resevoirs this isn't s/h .

I am using reservoirs. I just don't rely on the wicking for the irrigation of the pot, but it certainly adds to it.

You are using regular pots with holes at the bottom?

No. My pots have 2 holes 1 inch up from the bottom.

If so, this is watering frequently, but not a constant resevoir of water that the roots sit in(which Ray coined as s/H).

Once my seedlings roots grow they sit in the water in the reservoir. The photo below is a besseae hybrid planted directly in this pot 8 months ago and watered as I have described.

Maybe I'm incorrectly remembering that you stated you grew in S/H.

Perhaps what I am doing is growing ss/h, simi-simi/hydroponics?

If you're flushing with heavily fertilized water twice daily, I'd like to see what happens when you flush with R.O. water occasionally.

I'm not flushing with heavily fertilized water twice daily. I am watering lightly twice daily, not flushing. What I believe I said was that my frequent light waterings gives me a "constant" flush. I do not have salt build ups that need to be flushed.

It doesn't suprise my your tds readings high since your water is so high in tds to start with.

Well again, my tds readings are not "high", they are at an optimum level for rapid plant growth. You can see in the photo above that the besseae hybrid has not suffered and I think grown quite well in 8 months from flask to an 8 inch LS. Is it growing well, maybe I am mistaken?

Why do you feel you have to water with fertilizer upon every watering??

partly because of:
40+ years of growing experience with a focus on plant growth and nutrition.
Many, many tests by trial and error to determine what makes a plant grow faster, better, stronger and healthier. And a very keene sense of what a plant needs (I talk to them? :evil: ).

I could keep going as to why I fertilize and water the way I do and I will if you want. But the point of the thread is about the new PA.

In addition to my own experience with plant growing we know that PrimeAgra has no cation exchange capacity so we know the plants only get nutrition from the irrigation water.

Let me ask you this... Why do you feel plants do not need a nutrient supply every day of the week?

But my growing practices aside the measurements show that the new PA either has or holds more accumilated salts than the old PA. Even if I were adding too many tds I am adding them equally to both the new and old PA.