Should I self the kovachii I just got awarded?

[jhoff]

There's a thread about it and pix in the Phrag pictures forum...

Question for you guys - should I self this plant? I'm really tempted... or should I let it grow for another year or so before I try and put a pod on it? And do you know if they're like besseae where the pollen needs to be very fresh? And how about approx how long the gestation period is? I could also put the pollen on another phrag but all I have in bloom right now is some longifoliums (they're always in bloom...) and a besseae that's a bit past it's prime.

 

[slippertalker]

Use the pollen but don't stress the plant. It is a small first bloom seedling and putting a pod on it might just sap too much energy.

 

[jhoff]

Yeah, I know - I'm still tempted tho I'd send the seed to Troy Meyers which would be a big help to him...

 

[John Boy]

A plant that's ready to flower, is ready to carry a pod. I'd pollinate it, without any doubt. And I'd buy in a few other good plants, to use up the remaining pollen while they are frech to make nice hybrids.

 

[jhoff]

So I'm still deciding but leaning towards doing it

Does anyone know if the pollen needs to be fresh like besseae? I haven't even tried to do any research yet but will. Much nicer to just ask you guys who know tho

 

[jhoff]

and do I need to pollinate the flower fresh as well or can I enjoy it for a few more days?

I should probably write to / call Fritz and ask...

 

[John M]

Sorry John Boy. I disagree with that statement. From the plant's evolutionary point of view, the point of being alive is not to live, it is to produce progeny.....even if sometimes the parent plant sacrifices itself by sapping all it's strength to make those fertile seeds. Many plants bloom themselves to death....especially first bloom seedlings that are triggered into bloom by environmental influences before the plant is really mature enough to handle the energy tapping stress producing and carrying a flower and then a capsule.

Even though it got an AM award, I see much room for flower form improvement. This flower has the potential to be much larger in overall size. The petals could be much larger too, both in length and width. The staminode could be much larger and more flaring at the bottom edge and the stem could have more than just one flower on it. All these things are indications of a juvenile plant doing it's best; but, not meeting it's potential because it is still too young and not up to full strength. Blooming will have set it back and slowed the timeline to full maturity because of the energy the plant has had to put into making that flower, instead of a new growth and roots. Carrying a capsule will weaken it more....perhaps to the point of it dying just as the capsule reaches full term and ripens. If this were my plant, I'd use the pollen on other plants; but, not on itself. If I did, I couldn't be surprised if the plant croaked during, or immediately after, producing the capsule.

 

[nikv]

From what I've read, kovachii sometimes self pollinates, so you might not get a choice. It's up to you whether or not to allow the potential seed pod to develop.

 

[gonewild]

Use the pollen to make hybrids.

 

[Berthold]

Sorry John Boy. I disagree with that statement. From the plant's evolutionary point of view, the point of being alive is not to live, it is to produce progeny.....even if sometimes the parent plant sacrifices itself by sapping all it's strength to make those fertile seeds. Many plants bloom themselves to death....especially first bloom seedlings that are triggered into bloom by environmental influences before the plant is really mature enough to handle the energy tapping stress producing and carrying a flower and then a capsule.

Yes but the most power is needed to produce the big flower not for producing the seeds. So if the plant starts producing the seed pod it is out of the wood.

You should think about cutting the first bud not the first pod.

 

[John Boy]

From where I sit John has a valued point that many people would share. I've come to the point where I just think practical (which John does also in a way!),...but I'd claim that 95% of the drain has happened producing the buds and flower. And yes, it certainly is true, a pollination will cost the plant that little bit extra, but is it really such a big deal to turn a flower (which is there and history) into a pod? I for my part, doubt it. Talking drain, biomass-production and potential plant-loss: I just believe most people overreact when it comes to pollinating young plants, though again: John has a just and valued point here all the same.

The one thing in my defence is: The flower is there!!! Even the pod is there already, all that needs happening now, from a "production-perspective" is: the pod needs filling And here's my point: Filling that pod with viable seeds is a doddle for a healty plant! Had the plants weak roots, is it looking stressed, does it appear "ill" or generally weak: you should have chopped the spike as it developed, not riscing to loose the entire plant....

 

[Dido]

At least you could do both with the pollen self it and put some on the longifolium could be an interesting cross.

 

[JC94030]

I have some nice Phrags in bloom so would appreciate some pollen if possible.
--Jason Fischer, Fritz Schomburg, besseaes.
I sent you a PM.
JC

 

[Berthold]

I'd claim that 95% of the drain has happened producing the buds and flower. And yes, it certainly is true, a pollination will cost the plant that little bit extra, but is it really such a big deal to turn a flower (which is there and history) into a pod? ..

You can estimate the power ratio of needed power for the flower and needed power for the pod by weighting the flower inclusive pedicel and pod. Multiply the pod weight by 1.5 due to less water in it.

I have no idea but I roughly guess flower is 20 g, pod is 2 g. That is 20/3, 87% for the flower, 13% for the pod.

That means if You enjoy the flower don't cut the pod.

 

[Brian Monk]

I spoke to Hadley Cash a while back about using first bloom plants as parents. He said that he won't use one as a pod parent, b/c he has rarely gotten viable seed. I don't know if he ever lost a plant, but if you won't get good seed and the plant is spending ANY energy toward trying to make seed, then I would cut off the spike and let the plant develop. I see this in triploid Cattleyas, as well - strong, large plants can be slightly fertile, but never when small. Use the pollen, save the plant.

 

[John M]

Yes, I agree that in general the best thing to do (in the case of a small, or weak, or very young plant), is to cut the spike as soon as it emerges. However, the argument that once the flower has been made, it's pretty much unimportant whether or not the plant also continues to make a capsule full of viable seeds is flawed. The whole process of bloom initiation, growth, fertilization and ripening of the seeds is governed by plant hormones. Allowing the plant to carry a capsule to maturity completes the hormone cycle of reproduction and that sends some plants the signal that it's time to die now. One Genus that this occurs VERY often with is Disa. So many fantastic Disas grow well, bloom spectacularly and when they are finished, they drop dead without making a tuber. But, if you cut the spike, a tuber is more likely to be formed and the plant lives to bloom again. Cutting a spike at any point distrupts the reproductive hormone cycle and the plant's response, now that it cannot reproduce, is to keep growing and try to bloom again.

So, it is not just the conservation of energy. It's also about not stressing a plant by allowing it to bloom and produce seeds while too young or weak, which could just have the effect of sending it the signal that is has served it's purpose. This is why many plants (tropical Hybriscus, etc.), will side branch with multiple branches when you cut just a single lead. The plant reacts by coming back even better, with more stems, giving it an even better chance that some stems will get to carry flowers and eventually produce seeds. Cutting the flowerstem on a small or weak Phrag, or cutting the flower before a capsule is able to form, interupts the reproductive cycle and that sends the (hormonal), message to the plant to rev up and grow more foliage, instead of wimp out, give up and wither away because it's job of reproduction is done.

 

[Berthold]

Allowing the plant to carry a capsule to maturity completes the hormone cycle of reproduction and that sends some plants the signal that it's time to die now. One Genus that this occurs VERY often with is Disa. So many fantastic Disas grow well, bloom spectacularly and when they are finished, they drop dead without making a tuber.

You are very right, that is true for monocarpic plants. It is the natural way of live for theses species. But Phrag. kovachii isn't monocarpic.

 

[Rick]

I started a thread last week on whether or not capsules draw negatively from the plant.

I aggree with Johnboy and Berthold that if the plant survives flowering, capsule formation is a drop in the bucket.

Orchid seed has no nutrient store added to it (like corn seed), and the capsule walls themselves are photosynthesising just like leaves (making chemical energy).

I think that plants "stressing out" from blooming and seeding is just another symptom of K overdose.

If the roots are good on this plant, I would self it, but then knock down the standard high K fertilizer and start beefing up Ca and Mg fertilization (if that's the normal regime for this plant now). . Even better if there's a new growth start already.

You may also consider adding a kelp extract to the mix. This could shift the plants hormonal balance to encourage new growth with the capsule formation.

 

[John M]

You are very right, that is true for monocarpic plants. It is the natural way of live for theses species. But Phrag. kovachii isn't monocarpic.

When I said "they drop dead without making a tuber", I meant that the whole plant dies without producing any new vegetative growths, which Disas should and normally do in habitat; but, often don't in cultivation. While each rosette of leaves follows a monocarpic-like life cycle, the individual clone does not....normally.

True monocarpic plants divert all their energy from the roots and leaves to the production of fruit/seeds only. Disas are not true monocarpic plants. The main rosette of leaves does die after flowering; but, as it does that, the energy, which was not entirely consumed by the production of fruits and seeds, is used to make new offshoots and tubers. Thus, the plant lives on to bloom again, just from different growths. In that sense, they resemble the way a Phrag grows more than they they do not. Old bloomed Phrag growths do eventually die, they just take longer to do it. However, they will never bloom again. An old bloomed Phrag growth's only function is to support the new growths. A Disa's old bloomed growth's function is the same; except, it happens more quickly and completely. Still, the individual clone itself does not die. It propagates vegetatively by means of offshoots and tubers. Monocarpic plants compltely die, without leaving vegetative propagated bits of themselves. Biennials are a good example of a true monocarpic plant...such as Foxglove and Mullin. Disas are not monocarpic.

 

[gonewild]

According to the News hybrids consume less energy.