Strange behaving Phragmipedium dalessandroi

[cnycharles]

Many plants have never been seen in their habitat until recently. Some have not yet been seen, or only by a very few people. And in some cases, I have seen amazing things, but the collectors would never allow anyone to bring a camera, or even a handphone with possible GPS to the location.

hey, if some fool can try to make a bomb out of his underwear, someone almost as 'creative' should be able to make a gps that is 'unseen'

interesting info

 

[ohio-guy]

Dr Robert of our forum does chromosome counting I think.

 

[NYEric]

Very interesting and yes, we would like to see some of those old photos, Roth.

 

[SelectOrchids]

Very interesting and yes, we would like to see some of those old photos, Roth.

I will try to ask people in England... So far we only got a handful of public ones, there were some in the RHS Orchid Review as I remember, and a visit in 1995 with the BOC where some people took photos as well. Not easy to find those people back. Martin Ahring took a lot of photos, I remember very well, he was more or less in charge of that, but I don't know where are the photos. When I asked about him, he just had committed suicide I have been told. Alan Moon is still at the RHS, but he cannot move so much ( and was not that much on the photographic side...), John Hainsworth in the early days, before he started to fight with Alan Moon did take many photos, he left to California and died of a lymphoma. I will see who else...

The Eric Young had a lot of mysteries as well in the odontoglossum and cymbidium, some were not exactly made the supposed parents.

It was a wonderful place, with wonderful times in the early 90's. Whilst Chris Purver for sure runs it very well now, there has been a gap between Alan Moon/Don Wimber and him, where many informations and plants went lost.

Here is Alan Moon by the way with one of his Miltoniopsis hybrids:

and it was not the biggest he had bred. I remember one he showed to me with dinner plate flowers, over 20 cm, but he told me that the flower count was too low. It was not very long before he had to get his surgery that ended up his work with the Eric Young. Many people did not like Alan Moon too because they though he was selfish, and felt himself 'high class'. It was completely wrong, but he was a bit like Terry Root on that side, he knew so much that he liked to talk with people who knew their subject very well. As for me, it was after they showed an Adaglossum, very big orange flowers, twisted petals (but excellent symmetry), I was a teenager at that time, but told him that it should be awarded because the size of the flowers and the improvement over previous hybrids was tremendous. He though the same, but we were a bit of a minority, the judges passed it. That's how we came to discuss about a lot of various things, including with Don Wimber. Don Wimber was the man behind the scene to care about chromosome counting, breeding, and a part of the feeding schedule in rockwool. Alan Moon was more the artistic side, and the grower to team up with Don Wimber.

It is very interesting to know too that the Eric Young in those days did not have a laminar hood. Therefore ALL the awarded plants, fantastic plants, etc... have been done using a bunsen burner for the sowing, and a glove box for the replate. I visited the lab upstairs, it was highly primitive. Don Wimber would usually take and preserve all the root tips, and do the counting in Oregon. The sowings were all done on Tsuchiya media, liquid one. He showed to me as well a 5 liters erlenmeyer with a massive callus of phalaenopsis, maybe 20 cm diameter, no shaker, nothing... made in homemade Glove Box. I asked him how he did that, he said that the shaker was absolutely not needed if the media is changed, and the flask is hand shaked every few days. Years later I found he was absolutely right.

As an aside, that's me who gave to the Eric Young my division of the original besseae flavum ( therefore the Fox Valley Gold division) during a show in Brighton, directly to Alan Moon in those days. It was priceless at that time, but I did not like it :sob: and I though they could do better than me with that.

Olaf posted this photo as well some years ago:

Of the dalessandroi at the Eric Young.

One more note, the besseae (real ones) from Peru do not produce stolons. The besseae from Ecuador do make stolons. However Don Wimber counted both types at 2n-24. Only the dalessandroi were counted at 2n=28. The hybrid was counted at 2n=26, but sterile... The tetraploids at 4n=52 were fertile. That's why there is a lot to dig up behind this.

The last point, I still remember the Phragmipedium Eric Young originally bred by the Eric Young and displayed at the WOC ( in the proceeding book there are photos of them too). They were the most amazing Eric Young I have ever seen, and some of the plants were simply monstruous. I have seen later supposed divisions, and the flower shape, leaf size, did not match at all the real plants from this era.

 

[Fawkes]

Some years ago folks used dalessandroi in hybrids to get inflorescense branching and multiple open flowers. Memory fails me now, but I think that dalessandroi was lumped with besseae as a varietal form in earlier years.

That is a substantial plant in your pictures.

 

[Phrag-Plus]

Congratulation! You did get a very nice dallessandroï!
Very interesting thread too!

 

[Lars Pedersen]

Thank you

I have tried to self it......not sure I had any luck, beside ruining a few flowers.

So I have been searching a lot on the net, and of course I found out that it had to be wet. ( I have kids myself, so I should know )

So I will try to self a few more flowers (or ruin a few more ).

If I succeed, how long do the seed capsules have to mature on the plant to send them of to someone as green capsules ?

.... also I try to ask around about clearing this thing with sequentially flowering / multi flowering types of dalessandroi.
I am quite sure it has nothing to do with ploidity. But what then ??

As I have said before, I think there is a lot more to be said about the besseae / dalessandroi complex. But maybe I should open a new thread in taxonomy about that. I know it is a "hot" subject, but one that needs to be sorted out at some point.

.... Of to spanish lessons...Adios
Lars

 

[NYEric]

If you open up this discussion to taxonomists they will start changing names on us! !!!

 

[Lars Pedersen]

Here is a couple of picture more.
Not very good, they were taken in low lift with my phone, but hey give a impression of the inflorence with 5 flowers open.

And a bit closer

The inflorence is leaning into the living room, because it is unsupported. But it is strong, so it is not a probleme, and we have a great view at the flowers that way.

.... any thoughts on sequential / multifloral type of dalessandroi ?
Because they are very different. Both regarding plant habit and inflorence.

Best from Denmark
Lars

 

[Shiva]

If you open up this discussion to taxonomists they will start changing names on us! !!!

:rollhappy:

 

[Marc]

Very impressive plant.

Any luck with the polinating.

 

[NYEric]

This is without question dallessandroi, photo from Glanz is probably also dal.

 

[cnycharles]

amazing plant and flowers! I would bet that if you put these pics on ebay you could make a few house payments with the proceeds! (except that I wouldn't be able to bid on in on this side of the ocean, nor would I have enough money to win) good luck with the seeds, of course I would love to have some just like everyone else

 

[tomkalina]

Sorry to get in on this thread so late, but that is a beautiful example of a true d'alessandroi. As far as habitat photos, here's one we took during a trip to Ecuador in 2005. As you can see, the habitat is very wet. Enjoy.....

 

[Lars Pedersen]

Hi

Marc, no my first try to polinate it did not take. But I have nerver tried to do it before... polinating.
But I Will try again.
And if succesful, flasks will be offered to People's interested.
Because like Roth mention, I too have not seen these plants for many many years. In fact only on the pictures from the Eric Young Orchidfoundation.

Tom, it looks like the same place I vIsited last year. There are some pictures here:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18269&highlight=Ecuador

Thanks All for your coments.
......and sory NyEric.." I just have to start the diskussion as soon as I have got all my thoughts and observations put on paper :sob:

Thanks
Lars

 

[grasshopper]

Count me in on a flask!

 

[tomkalina]

Hi Lars,

Your photos do look familiar. Were they taken around the area of Chiguinda? That is a popular place, especially if you go on the Ecuagenera tour. BTW - for those of you looking for seedlings of the true species, we have them......

Thanks,

 

[Heather]

Fascinating thread and history - thanks everyone!