Cattleya warneri ‘graue’ SM/DOG

[monocotman]

A tipo form of this species with nice big flowers. This plant is a division from Hilmar Bauch.
Warneri has very similar flowers to labiata and its difficult to tell the bloom apart.
However the species grow very differently, with labiata being a summer grower and this species a winter grower. It is also has shorter plumper bulbs and very wide leaves. If you have a cattleya hybrid with wide leaves then it undoubtedly has warneri in its parentage.

David

 

[monocotman]

An indoor shot one of the flowers.
The outdoors shots have more faithful colour.

 

[terryros]

That is a really fine flower, David. I finally got a warneri seedling recently, a selfing of a great alba. I have wondered how much our published information about when each species roots, makes new growths, and blooms is influenced by the conditions of growth for the author. For example, Chadwicks’ book notes warneri blooming middle of May to the middle of June yet yours is blooming now. Conditions in a greenhouse in Virginia in the US are going to be different from yours and it makes sense the growth and blooming would be different. In my indoor plant room with LED lighting, I try to approximate the day length and temperature conditions that affect most Cattleyas in South America. I think this will affect growth and blooming compared to a greenhouse grower here in Minnesota.

 

[Ozpaph]

nice flower and well grown.
thanks for the 'commentary', too.

 

[monocotman]

Terry, I find that the growth of an individual cattleya can vary quite a bit from the ’norm’, especially when they are young or newly arrived and not settled down.
This plant pushed out new shoots last autumn and has grown over winter as Chadwick says it should, it’s just flowered early. My other warneri plants are doing the same, growthwise.
once plants are settled and mature they should approximate to Chadwick’s suggestions. The only one that doesn’t for me is a lueddemanniana that grows like a labiata, in summer and flowers in the autumn. It’s done the same for five years. All my other plants of his species do as they should and grow and flower early in the year.
David

 

[geoffsharris]

Very nice plant. You should read the bloom times with a bit of a grain of salt. It depends a lot on how much sun and the consistency of the temperature while growing. A lot of the books have been written by authors that grow in more temperate places where they are running temps in the mid to high 50s night and low 70s day in winter with a lot less sun. For those plants that are growing in winter, this is kind of suboptimal for growth. A lot less important for the plants that are dormant during the winter. I have warneri clones that start flowering now and the latest ones finish late June or early July. As I started to grow them a bit warmer through the winter (min 62-63F), they have progressively started blooming a bit earlier. Lueddemanniana is one that if it doesn't get enough warmth and sun in winter, will often either not bloom at all or bloom on a second growth in the fall. This is pretty common behavior for lueddemanniana in the UK and higher latitudes in the US. If grown really well with a lot of sun and warmth in winter, will sometime bloom both seasons. They are from pretty low elevation and do a lot better with winter minimum of 65F. That being said, the patterns of growth amongst the Cattleya is pretty consistent. Lueddemanniana, warneri, dowiana, warscewiczii, gaskelliana put out a growth, flower pretty much straight away and then root, while jenmanii, labiata, mossiae, percivalliana, trianae (and others) tend to put out a growth and root at the same time, rest for a bit and then bloom. To get labiata to bloom well under lights, it's pretty important to adjust day length as it is remarkably sensitive to a slightly shorter day length as the key trigger for blooming. They also come from an area with a relatively long and quite dry "winter" rest. Much more so than warneri.

 

[terryros]

Well said. They don't grow and bloom by a calendar, but by day length, light intensity, temperature, and availablity of water and nutrients. Many variables.

 

[dodidoki]

Very nice warneri!!!You are lucky to have this!

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Good blooming David.

In all the years that I’ve grown warneri, they have shown characteristics that differentiate from its sister species labiata. These characteristics are pointed out nicely by both David and Geoff. These are summarized well in the Chadwick book.

I wanted to share my observations and have noted these patterns:

1. warneris start their new growths in Oct/Nov (as late as Feb/March) and mature growths in 3-4 months under ideal conditions. Good watering and fertilizer is needed for good strong growths. (versus labiata start new growths in spring around April/May and mature by August/Sept).

2. Ideal conditions are warmer night temperatures (15-18C) and bright light (2200-3000 fc). Any different will slow down the growths and may not sheath or bloom. They are not light period sensitive like labiata and requires 12 hours of light for health (they are from equatorial regions).

3. They bloom as soon as growths mature in summer, with as many as 3-5 huge 15-18 cm flowers that develop very fast. Best to groom flowers for best presentation as they tend to crowd. The stalk usually is strong enough to support without staking. Flowers lasts up to 3 weeks (4 weeks if kept cooler). Chadwick warns to keep buds in sheaths from burning if plant is close to window. (versus labiata which blooms after 1-2 months of rest after summer maturation, with two to three 13-15 cm flowers in fall). Warneri flowers are so big that the petals have a slight droop midway out, almost like mossiae, but less. The petals usually do not overlap the sepals (some select cultivars do but very rare) and windows are seen between sepals and petals. An ideal flower reduces this window with upright petals.

4. After blooming, the warneri starts rooting. (vs labiata that roots right away).

5. Warneri leaves are very wide up to 8 cm in some (vs 4 cm in labiata) making them appear short and stout. The leave color is also darker moss green versus labiata lighter apple green usually.

These are my observations that can help me tell the difference between warneri and labiata.

Caveat: as mentioned, imported plants may take 1-2 years to get on schedule.

 

[monocotman]

Thanks all, this is the first warneri I’ve flowered and am very pleased with it.
It was grown in the south facing window in my warmest room all winter. Minimums are about 17c at night and 23c during the day, warmer when the sun is out.
When it arrived last spring it was just starting a new growth and this matured during the summer but didn’t flower. It had a brief rest then pushed out another growth at the more normal time in the autumn and this has bloomed. Actually it pushed out three growths in the autumn and one of the others produced a single flower but it was lost when it got caught in the sheath.
It seems to be a very vigorous clone,
David

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Great Growing David!!

 

[abax]

Lovely Catt. The colors are so harmonious. Is it fragrant?

 

[monocotman]

Angela,
today is day four so the fragrance is just starting to kick in. The flower may still be developing. It’s a pleasant very sweet fragrance.
Here it is today with mossiae willowbrook.
I sit in my sunny front room on the iPad and look at these sat next to me. It makes for a pleasant morning!

David

 

[DrLeslieEe]

David, it’s called Zen Happiness lol.

 

[terryros]

David, do you grow everything by windows and nothing with artificial light? Do you grow any orchids outdoors in the summer?

 

[terryros]

Good blooming David.

In all the years that I’ve grown warneri, they have shown characteristics that differentiate from its sister species labiata. These characteristics are pointed out nicely by both David and Geoff. These are summarized well in the Chadwick book.

I wanted to share my observations and have noted these patterns:

1. warneris start their new growths in Oct/Nov (as late as Feb/March) and mature growths in 3-4 months under ideal conditions. Good watering and fertilizer is needed for good strong growths. (versus labiata start new growths in spring around April/May and mature by August/Sept).

2. Ideal conditions are warmer night temperatures (15-18C) and bright light (2200-3000 fc). Any different will slow down the growths and may not sheath or bloom. They are not light period sensitive like labiata and requires 12 hours of light for health (they are from equatorial regions).

3. They bloom as soon as growths mature in summer, with as many as 3-5 huge 15-18 cm flowers that develop very fast. Best to groom flowers for best presentation as they tend to crowd. The stalk usually is strong enough to support without staking. Flowers lasts up to 3 weeks (4 weeks if kept cooler). Chadwick warns to keep buds in sheaths from burning if plant is close to window. (versus labiata which blooms after 1-2 months of rest after summer maturation, with two to three 13-15 cm flowers in fall). Warneri flowers are so big that the petals have a slight droop midway out, almost like mossiae, but less. The petals usually do not overlap the sepals (some select cultivars do but very rare) and windows are seen between sepals and petals. An ideal flower reduces this window with upright petals.

4. After blooming, the warneri starts rooting. (vs labiata that roots right away).

5. Warneri leaves are very wide up to 8 cm in some (vs 4 cm in labiata) making them appear short and stout. The leave color is also darker moss green versus labiata lighter apple green usually.

These are my observations that can help me tell the difference between warneri and labiata.

Caveat: as mentioned, imported plants may take 1-2 years to get on schedule.

Leslie, I can’t quite deduce your growing conditions. Your collection seems extensive and you are into all the details of growth that I care about, so please tell me about more about how you grow.

 

[monocotman]

Terry,
my catts all sit in south or east facing windows pretty much year round. They may go outside for a very brief spell in summer but that is more for cleaning and spraying than for growth. The phrags are all in a west facing window. I have quite a bit of window space.
The catts are all growing in 100% orchiata, in plastic pots and watered when needed with rain water plus akernes rain mix.
I have no supplementary lighting. Plants in the south facing windows have decent roots, if I am at all unsure, they start off in the east windows where stress from prolonged sunlight is less.
I feed little and often, at every watering year round, against much of the current advice. The TDS of winter feeding maybe 100 or so and summer feeding closer to 200.
Even when catts are ‘dormant’ and not growing, I am sure that they are capable of absorbing nutrients. That is what those pseudo bulbs are for. Together with the sugars made by the leaves at the same time, it is the reason that they are capable of pushing up a new growth in such super fast time,
regards
david

 

[terryros]

Thanks very much. I growly purely indoors with LED lighting. For the last three years I have grown everything in “rocks”, formerly Growstones, but since that is no longer being produced, I have switched to Hydroton and I think that is better for several reasons. I water every 3-5 days depending on the season and I always have dilute nutrients with an EC of the solution about 500. I give about 80 ppm N per week. For my higher light Cattleyas I deliver 300-400 micro moles/meter squared/second at the top of the leaves but some others get 200. I vary day length from a minimum of 11.5 hours in mid winter to 13.5 hours mid-summer. My minimum night temperature in mid-winter is 55 and my maximum day temperature mid-summer is 85 on my upper growing levels. I have a differential of 6-7 degrees between my upper and lower levels for maximum day temperature so I have my Paphs, Miltoniopsis, and Phragmipediums on the lower level.

 

[Linus_Cello]

Thanks very much. I growly purely indoors with LED lighting.

Apologies if you mentioned this on another thread, but what LED lights are you using?

 

[terryros]

I use two different types of bulbs (MR16 7 watt delivering 650 lumens and BR30 20 watt delivering 1500 lumens). The first is elevated several feet or more over lower light orchids that need 80-100 micro moles/meter squared/sec with a lot of head room for spikes. The 1500 lumen bulbs are all over higher light Cattleyas. I also have some new LED panels that are more efficient but can only deliver 200 at 2 inches below the panel. I use these for more immature Cattleyas, although I am blooming some under these as well. I think that 150-200 may be quite adequate to bloom some or even many species. The issue with the panel is that taller spikes cannot be accommodated as well.