Does phrag besseae = dalessandroi?

[koshki]

In drooling over and researching phrag photos in OrchidWiz, I've run across a few plants that have dalessandroi in it.

When I check the Bakers' culture sheets on the dalessandroi, it says it's a synonym for besseae. But if, for example, I look at the make up of La Hougette, it lists both besseae and dalessandroi as separate elements.

So, are they the same thing or are they different?

 

[Shiva]

Depends on who you talk to these days. I've always considered them different but taxonomists have lumped them in the same species. And I don't care what they say in this case.

 

[Marc]

According to kew Phrag. dalessandroi is a synonim for Phrag besseae var. dalessandroi.

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?name_id=152845

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?name_id=152860

 

[W. Beetus]

I think they look fairly similar, but I believe I read somewhere that there was some genetic testing done to d'allesandroi that concluded that it was different enough from besseae to be considered a different species. I think it was something involving the number of chromosomes in d'allesandroi vs. besseae.

 

[Ray]

I asked the same question of Hadley Cash a couple of weeks ago. He told me that besseae flavum will have single, successive flowers, while dalessandroi will have branched spikes.

 

[koshki]

Hmm, clear as mud!

Is it safe to assume that they have the same cultural requirements? What about size?

 

[ohio-guy]

I understand that another big difference is growth habit, Besseae tends to climb out of a pot on successive growths, while delessadroi tends to grow in more of a clump. I had heard similar information about chromosome counts, but I don't recall where.

 

[NYEric]

They are similar but deff not the same. I personally don't think being stolonous vs gowing clumping and nnon-stolonous is enough of a distinguishing factor. the form of dalessendroi is different, pointy, drooping lateral petals, the orange/yellow interior flame, etc. Get one of each!

 

[Rick]

I agree with Eric on this one. I haven't heard anything (yet) on genetic/chromosomal differences, but I wouldn't be surprised is there turned out to be a few genes different.

The flower form is consistently different between the two, and the branching spike of d'alesandroi is also significantly different.

I don't think the morphological differences necessarily warrant species status, but I could certainly go for varietal status.

Synonymy at species level does not mean that have to be identical.

I think besseae generally has superior color and flower form, but d'alesandroi's capacity for branching spikes can be a great show.

 

[koshki]

Learned a new word today: stolon. Yes, Eric, I need both! :wink:

As for culture: the same?

 

[NYEric]

As far as I know. Tom Kalina would be the one to ask.

 

[TyroneGenade]

A while back there was a thread showing bessae in the wild and several flowering plants were shown. Amonst the small selection of plants there were typical "bessae" flowers/plants and typical "dalessandroi" flowers/plants and then several variations inbetween. Sadly I can't find the thread.

 

[Kavanaru]

I understand that another big difference is growth habit, Besseae tends to climb out of a pot on successive growths, while delessadroi tends to grow in more of a clump. I had heard similar information about chromosome counts, but I don't recall where.

If I recall it correctly, I think I have read somewhere here in ST that besseae from Peru also has a cumpling (not stoloniferous) growth habit...

 

[tomkalina]

Current thinking is that it's a separate species. Phrag. d'alessandroi has 28 chromosomes compared to besseae's 24, the stolons of d'alessandroi emerge close to the preceding growth while besseae stolons tend to climb, d'alessandroi inflorescences tend to branch as a rule, besseae does not. Our `Fox Valley' CHM/AOS clone( the source of our seedlings) was examined and identified as being authentic by the species discoverer, Dr. Cal Dodson.

Thanks,

 

[JC94030]

Aside from taxanomic discussion, one note for Koshki: a lot of Phrag. d'alessandroi offered in the trade are not authentic to being that species or variety.
FV's would be correct.
If the C-some numbers are different, that would indeed suggest d'a is a separate species from besseae.
JC

 

[tomkalina]

Here are a couple flower photos for comparison. The narrow, reflexing petals on the photo showing a branching inflorescence belong to a true Phrag. d'alessandroi. The rounder, flater flower form belongs to Phrag. besseae. There's a rumor that the reason why the RHS is reluctant to upgrade d'alessandroi to species status is that the original primary hybrids made by the Eric Young Foundation were made with d'alessandroi, not besseae. If true, this would make all those primary names invalid and create a mountain of paper work for the RHS because all those primaries using d'alessandroi would have to be re-named. Anyone ST'ers here from the Eric Young Orchid Foundation to address this issue?

Thanks,

 

[koshki]

Wow, and I thought this was a question with a simple answer!

 

[Erythrone]

And for cultivation...

The same???

 

[tomkalina]

We grow the two in similar conditions. Approx 1,000 fc light level, wet, and intermediate to cool temps with good air movement. They really resent being dried out between waterings, so we typically place the compots in r/o or rain water until the seedlings are ready for 2 1/4" rose pots - then we water frequently. Any seedlings appearing to struggle in 2 1/4" pots are placed back in water.

 

[Rick]

Tom There doesn't seem to be much in the way of geographical separation of these two taxa. There may be some elevation difference with d'alesandroi coming from lower elevations. Is it a bit more tolerant of higher temps than besseae?

Do you know if anyone has conducted any in situ pollination studies?

There may be other characters such as blooming season or things outside of our perception like UV pattern or fragrance that may promote population/genetic isolation.

The two taxa seem to hybridize readily (and compatibly) in the GH, so there needs to be something that keeps them genetically isolated.