Early K-lite results

[rcb]

Yes it takes a long, I would not disagree with what you say. But it really is the only way to learn the perfect application.



Yes 100 ppm with every watering is perfect. But she can not block the rainfall which dilutes and flushes the 100ppm. I think she also said fertilizing twice a week was about as often as she can get it done. Since she has no way to apply fertilizer 5 days out of 7 her best option is to apply extra on the days she does apply fertilizer. Somehow there has to be enough minerals to produce the mass of plant tissue.



Yes fertilize rain or shine. Actually right after a rain is perfect timing.
Even at 200ppm N watering everyday would not be too much considering the rainfall in the equation. I am assuming it rains a lot of volume not just often.

If I apply fertilizer on rainy days, I could fertilize more often. Not every day, due to being away from home but more than twice a week. As for the rain, yes significant volume, think Florida torrential rains the part of Florida I live in, is one of the wettest.

 

[gonewild]

So, it seems like their is a consensus that I've got some kind of nutritional deficiency. Which there are 4 potentials suggested, K, P, Mg, or overall lack of adequate nutrition.

Yes. I go with "overall lack of adequate nutrition"

This could be caused by my water flushing, fertilizer rate/frequency, or some interaction with clay products. Or something weird with my water.

Probably all of the above. Except now I doubt there is anything wrong with your water.

Suggestions have been add bone meal to increase P, increase concentration, keep concentration the same but increase frequency, or add reservoir to have nutrients available longer.

All solutions for the basic problem.

Unfortunately my life is a bit crazy busy right now, so it would be extremely difficult to test all of these. So what would be the consensus on two things to test first?

Increasing the frequency is the best. But you can't because you cannot compete with the rain.

Double the concentration and continue as you are doing is your best hope to solve the problem in the shortest time frame. For the first week or two fertilize as often as you can to get the levels up asap.

BTW, there is another Hoya grower in Canada who I converted to K lite, she grows her Hoyas in S/H and has reported great results.

So this supports that the ratios of K-lite are correct AND it tells us your hoyas are not getting enough nutrients.

 

[gonewild]

If I apply fertilizer on rainy days, I could fertilize more often. Not every day, due to being away from home but more than twice a week. As for the rain, yes significant volume, think Florida torrential rains the part of Florida I live in, is one of the wettest.

It is always better to use lower doses more often. But realistically are you going to go out on rainy days and fertilize? Are you going to fertilize 4 or 5 times a week always? I don't think so, if if you intend to.

Increase the dose double and this will likely solve the problem without impacting your routine.

The one important factor when using higher nutrient levels in the fertilizer applications is to not let the plants dry out. You don't have that problem.

 

[Brabantia]

Well for K lite if you feed at 100ppm N then you have about 250ppm total.

So about 2 X the normal dose.

(250x13)/100 = 32.5 ppm N ?? I don't understand your maths Rick

 

[orcoholic]

I probably shouldn't be putting my 2 cents in here as I have no scientific background. I am a commercial vendor and have literally grown thousands of orchids. I don't wholesale, so many of my orchids are grown for several years before they are sold.

From just looking at the leaves on the sample pictures it looks like they are sunburned and nutrient deficient. Perhaps the nutrient deficiency is causing the leaves to become more easily damaged by sunlight than before. I think it's likely that this will happen in FL.

I have been watering at Ec of 100 during the growing season (Mar - Oct), 50 ppm during the other months and Ph of about 6.5 for 20 years without any problems at all. I've changed fertilizers many times and have never had any problems using these numbers - on any genera. My vandas grow as well as phals and Masd on it.

With the MSU fertilizer I had to add citric acid to get to the 6.5 level. Due to the costs of shipping, I switched to Jacks RO formula - which is similar in makeup. Using the same Ph and Ec, I have had no problems.

I think the fertilizer rate needs to be increased to these levels at least and maybe more. I don't know an orchids appetite during the brutal heat of summers in FL. Ph level is just as important, and should be kept at 6 - 6.5.

Ec of 100 translates to 400ppm - 454ppm, depending on what meter you're using.

One question I have is do the roots turn green immediately when your water gets on them? To me, this always indicates if the orchids are able to take up the nutrients or not, and hold them in the velamin so the plant can get them. If they stay white while being watered, and then turn green a few minutes later, or don't turn green at all, there's something wrong - probably with the hardness or the Ph of the water.

Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago, after reading the article in the the AOS Mag, I started to convert Jack's RO formula to a K-Lite formula to see the results. They should show pretty quickly because now is the major growth season in my area.

While watering the other day I noticed the leaves on my Rene Marques (an Epi) were dark purple. I don't know if they were before I started the K-Lite regimen. Also, I have not been able to put up my shade cloths because it's been so wet and windy around here, but I suspect that's the reason. I usually get them up by Mar. 7.

My first thought was that the purple was due to the extra amount of sun combines with the extra Mg I started using when converting the Jack's. Don't have any idea why - it just looked like what I thought a leaf would look like if Mg was accumulating in the leaves and then the leaf was getting heated by excess sunlight.

My conversion to K-Lite was simple and i hope it's right. I reduced the Jack's in my stock solution by half (64 oz), and increased the Ca by 32oz and the Mg by 32oz. I think this is what the article indicated to do. If not, please let me know. My concern is that everything else in the Jack's is getting reduced by half too.

I'm not usually influenced by articles like this but this one was so well written and thought out, that I had to give the change a try. Many thanks to whoever wrote it. (Rick?)

 

[orcoholic]

I'm not convinced it's a nutrient deficiency. I think it's more likely that the orchids losing the leaves were unable to adapt to the new fertilizer, similar to what I've heard happens to an orchids roots when it is moved from one medium to another. Never actually observed this, but have heard from a few advanced growers that this actually occurs.

My reasons are because the new growths are doing better than the old - rootwise and growthwise - if I understand Renee's post. I think the older pbulbs roots died when she switched the fertilizer and the leaves turned red and yellow because they got sunburned and because there are no roots to support the leaves.

If the leaf death happened a few months after the switch, and the pbulbs were shriveled, I would be more apt to come to this conclusion. If upon repotting there were no roots on the pbulbs with the problem, it would even be more likely, since just a nutrient deficiency doesn't seem like it should completely kill the roots - at least not in a year.

If this were the case, there's no worries because the orchid will put on bigger and better growths like your getting now. Or, at least no worries until the next time someone discovers a "better" fertilizer and everything starts all over again.

Remember, the only two things certain in an orchids life are death and taxonomy.

 

[rcb]

ok, got pics, but I still have to upload them.

But I got some more numbers this morning.

Initial weight after 1st after 2nd pot size and media
833 886 895 5 inch, LECA
1181 1260 895 6 inch, LECA
283 344 351 4 inch, Turface
508 569 609 4 inch. Turface
807 844 871 5 inch LECA
255 297 306 mounted
971 1023 1032 8 inch, LECA
82 106 114 mounted

 

[rcb]

ok, there have been a couple of statements in the last few posts that make assumptions about my climate. They aren't necessarily true, Florida is a big state with many microclimates.

First, don't assume my pots don't dry out in a day. They can and do, especially once spring sets in. For example that pot I weighed yesterday is already down to 463g, about 20? hours after watering, and the high yesterday was only 66, and it was not sunny yesterday. Also, I mentioned way back in the beginning that I'm coastal. My backyard is less than half a mile from the Gulf. So, even though I have lots of rain, and high humidity, the breeze and wind is very strong compared to most places. It is a rare day the air is dead.

Second, just because I'm in Florida, doesn't mean we have severe heat year round. Again due to the closeness to the Gulf, we actually don't get to 100F often. The hottest month, we still have many days in the 80s and low 90s. Yes we do get a string of hot days, but it's not like S. Florida or interior Florida.

Third, I disagree that the p'bulbs that have lots their leaves don't have active roots. I disagree because I can see them. The root retention in my potting media is so so much better than when I grew in bark or CHC. (One of the minor reasons I really like the LECA)When I repot, I can trace the roots back to their p'bulb, and those roots are still healthy. Your theory of the leaf not being adjusted may be a valid one? I don't know about that. But the assumption the roots are dead is not correct.

And what's up with the site logging me off everytime I write a post? It seems almost like it times out? LOL

 

[gonewild]

From just looking at the leaves on the sample pictures it looks like they are sunburned and nutrient deficient. Perhaps the nutrient deficiency is causing the leaves to become more easily damaged by sunlight than before. I think it's likely that this will happen in FL.

I would not say the leaves are sunburned but what you are saying is "basically" true. The low nutrient levels may not supply the demand caused by intense light which can lead to leaf loss. The issue we need is to figure out is which nutrient(s) is responsible for this.

Ec of 100 translates to 400ppm - 454ppm, depending on what meter you're using.

That is why I am recommending the increase of doubling the dose. Not based on science as much as it is based on experience. 500ppm will not harm the plants by "burning" them with fertilizer.

 

[gonewild]

I'm not convinced it's a nutrient deficiency. I think it's more likely that the orchids losing the leaves were unable to adapt to the new fertilizer, similar to what I've heard happens to an orchids roots when it is moved from one medium to another. Never actually observed this, but have heard from a few advanced growers that this actually occurs.

The problem to adapt would be caused by a change in chemistry. If they are unable to adapt it is because of a deficiency or an excess of something.

My reasons are because the new growths are doing better than the old - rootwise and growthwise - if I understand Renee's post. I think the older pbulbs roots died when she switched the fertilizer and the leaves turned red and yellow because they got sunburned and because there are no roots to support the leaves.

If the leaf death happened a few months after the switch, and the pbulbs were shriveled, I would be more apt to come to this conclusion. If upon repotting there were no roots on the pbulbs with the problem, it would even be more likely, since just a nutrient deficiency doesn't seem like it should completely kill the roots - at least not in a year.

I don't think dead roots have been reported?

Remember, the only two things certain in an orchids life are death and taxonomy.

It is not certain that an orchid plant will die.

 

[rcb]

ok first it's hard to find appropriate pics, as most of what we've been discussing has already happened, so I can't get pics showing it.

I'm going to start with good stuff.

This one shows improvement in growth. Think it's obvious which p'bulbs developed after I switched.



Here is a pic of how much improved my flowerings have been. I have had this plant for a few years now, and never had this result before. I did not have any leaf issues, this plant is still in CHC.

And here is a pic from last summer, showing leaf differences before and after the switch to k-lite - Hoyas.

And another

 

[gonewild]

ok, got pics, but I still have to upload them.

But I got some more numbers this morning.

Initial weight after 1st after 2nd pot size and media
833 886 895 5 inch, LECA = gain of 62
1181 1260 895 6 inch, LECA = loss of 286 (oops)
283 344 351 4 inch, Turface = gain of 68
508 569 609 4 inch. Turface = gain or 101
807 844 871 5 inch LECA = gain of 64
255 297 306 mounted = gain of 51
971 1023 1032 8 inch, LECA = gain of 61
82 106 114 mounted = gain of 32

Numbers are consistent with the one from yesterday other than the second line.

 

[rcb]

Now here is a pic showing a glauca hybrid just starting it's spike, it is not one of the 3 mounted I mentioned above. I just noticed this, this morning.





And here is a plant that is a summer bloomer, and have seen no effect. It did bloom very well last summer, after the switch. As I mentioned, I did not start seeing things until fall. Please ignore the fact I didn't clean it up. And yes, it so needs repotted. I know. I guess I'm going to have to try and clean them up more if I want a CHM someday



And here is the whole lovely Hoya with the red edges. I have a bunch like this.



I looked for a whole plant pic from last summer, I don't have one. But here is what the leaves used to look like.

 

[keithrs]

Renee- Did your leaves start to change as cool/cold weather set in? I did notice that I had lots of leaves change color(green to yellow) as cool weather set in back in oct and are still dropping. I see this as normal because it has not been excessive.

Ray- Is there a chance that she may have got a batch that was low in something? I know there was a ? on how homogenized the mixture of the fertilizer is, even with your best efforts the mix it?

 

[rcb]

Numbers are consistent with the one from yesterday other than the second line.

That's what I get when trying to do too many things at one time.

The second line should read... 1181 , 1260, 1281. Sorry. The 895 belonged to someone else.

I just wanted to make sure that theories were not being based on the numbers from only one plant.

 

[rcb]

Renee- Did your leaves start to change as cool/cold weather set in? I did notice that I had lots of leaves change color(green to yellow) as cool weather set in back in oct and are still dropping. I see this as normal because it has not been excessive.

Ray- Is there a chance that she may have got a batch that was low in something? I know there was a ? on how homogenized the mixture of the fertilizer is, even with your best efforts the mix it?

Keithrs, yes, the majority of them are from the wintertime, but I first started seeing this back in Sept/Oct timeframe. Cooler weather doesn't set in here until mid November. By cooler weather I mean nights starting to drop into the 50s. Days are still warm then usually.

Also, this is the 4th winter many of these guys have spent outside. I think I would have noticed it before??

As for homogenized, when I first got the K-lite I did notice that there are a lot of different sized pieces, so before I start measuring it out, I do mix up the dry powder - every time. I remember enough about what I call "water chemistry" to notice and do that. I am also on my third container of K-lite. I don't know if they all came from the same batch? I would guess not.

 

[gonewild]

First, don't assume my pots don't dry out in a day. They can and do, especially once spring sets in. For example that pot I weighed yesterday is already down to 463g, about 20? hours after watering, and the high yesterday was only 66, and it was not sunny yesterday.

The pot weighed 426 to start so it is drying but not dry yet.
I assume the pot at 426 still had some moisture in the media before you watered it?
If you had not watered it and then weighed it the next day it would probably have weighed less...which means it was not "dry"

BUT... When I said not to let the pots dry out it was related to applying fertilizer in high doses. When I say dry out I mean to the point the plant is suffering from lack of water. Not the case with your watering practice.
Nor is 500ppm fertilizer solution a "high" dose in this regards.

theory of the leaf not being adjusted may be a valid one? I don't know about that. But the assumption the roots are dead is not correct.

Old leaves are not going to adjust well. The front growing part of the plant has little interest in sending reserves to the retired section. When the front section is blessed with great growing conditions (food supplies) it does not need the support of the old section so it turns it off.

And what's up with the site logging me off everytime I write a post? It seems almost like it times out? LOL

Some people report this problem. Make you you check "remember me" when you enter your password. And there is a time limit you can be inactive and remain logged in. For some reason this does not apply to all users.

 

[gonewild]

That's what I get when trying to do too many things at one time.

The second line should read... 1181 , 1260, 1281. Sorry. The 895 belonged to someone else.

I just wanted to make sure that theories were not being based on the numbers from only one plant.

It's gain is consistent with the others.

 

[gonewild]

Cooler weather doesn't set in here until mid November.

But short days do! Winter is also about day length.

 

[orcoholic]

Still healthy roots on the old pbulbs kills my theory about the orchids not being able to adapt.

If it is a deficiency, why would the new growths be so much bigger than the old? Wouldn't they be stunted?