Pale leaves with green veining

[Stone]

Fe

This all makes perfect sense. I am sure you are correct that finding the correct balance of nutrients in S/H is more challenging than in an organic medium. And I obviously haven't found it yet. I guess maybe that is part of the challenge, I want to try to figure it out. Perhaps someday I will throw in the towel and return to bark culture but I am not there yet. I will take another look at the micronutrients and also the ph and see if I can find something that should be tweaked.

In hydroponics Fe can be very unstable. The best is the FeEDDHA chelated iron because the FeEDTA breaks down quickly at pH values over 5.5. I would investigate if that is your problem - or part of it. Try lowering the pH of the solution to 5.5 to see if that helps or perhaps buy some of the Fe compound mentioned if you don't want to lower pH and try it on a few plants. You can begin to see how tricky this can be.. If that does not help you need to keep looking elsewhere. (the plant in the back of the first photo is in serious trouble).
Anyway, iron is usually the first thing to investigate if all nutrients are present and you are getting chlorosis in the newest leaves. It must be in balance with Mg, Cu and Zn. **Also check if sulphate-S is there in the Peters. Also, is the ''Cal Mag'' the one with Calcium chloride? Very bad!
Your tap water might be ok but I can't read it.

 

[CharlesD]

Agree with stone and gone wild. pH would be simplest place to start. It does look like you need to supplement Ca and Mg however. My well water has lower pH but still at 7. It has sufficient Ca and Mg so I can get away with 20-20-20 without Ca and Mg. The main reason I use this vs 30-10-10 is that the extra P lowers the pH of the solution to 6.3. I would suggest playing around with what pH you get with different fertilizer solutions then getting a pH lowering acid if needed. it’s also important to have sufficient buffering in solution you do add.

 

[Ray]

I don’t know what Lance is thinking, but 50 ppm TDS is hardly “high”.

Personally, I think you’re unnecessarily “forcing chemistry” on the plant. Between the Peters fertilizer and the water, they’re getting all the nutrients they need. I would double the Peter’s dosage and drop the rest.

I had something similar happen to a single phrag. I was experimenting with using rockwool and perlite as a medium, but did not acid-treat the rockwool before use, which has likely led to the rhizosphere pH being higher than I realized. Following Xavier’s advice, I started giving it the new formula of K-Lite that has 15% NH4-N, rather than 2% in the original. Within a few weeks it had greened up again. (That will be my preferred blend going forward.)

Nitrate-based fertilizers, over time, can lead to an increase in substrate pH, while ammonium-based ones can have the opposite effect. Merely changing the pH of the applied solution does not compensate for that. It is more the combination of medium + plant (some have their own nitrogen-form preferences) that affect that.

 

[gonewild]

I don’t know what Lance is thinking, but 50 ppm TDS is hardly “high”.

It's hard to read the analysis report on my phone but doesn't it list the TDS at 500?
If it is actually 50 then TDS is not a problem. However the pH is to high unless I read that wrong as well is it not 8.22?

Edit... I see now the 500 TDS reading is in the maximum column and the TD's is actually 54 ppm which is not a problem. But you need to know the ppm and pH of the fertilizer solution to diagnose the pale leaf problem.

 

[Ray]

Lance. I had the same pronblem at first!

 

[Roots]

Thanks all for the amazing and thoughtful advice. Apologies for the tiny water chart. I didn't respond sooner because I wanted to gather some data first.

iron is usually the first thing to investigate if all nutrients are present and you are getting chlorosis in the newest leaves.

I had chelated iron and applied it as a foliar spray to one of the chlorotic plants as an experiment, realizing it doesn't solve the problem but thinking it might at least indicate whether the deficiency is Fe or not. Didn't see an immediate change but do think the leaf has become somewhat more green over all. Don't know how long to wait before expecting a change.

A quick look at your water analysis looks like the pH is to high. Have you tested the pH of your fertilizer solution?

My pH is definitely high. Tap is consistently over 8. Realizing this probably is not helping out my newly deflasked seedlings either. Bought and used a pH lowering acid for hydroponics (Phosphoric) to get tap water down. Very small amounts result in huge swings in ph, presumably because the water is so clean? Anyway, will continue to experiment to get tap water down to about 6. Is this an appropriate pH? Wondering if I should continue to water with just adjusted pH tap and for how long before reintroducing nutrients?

The main reason I use this vs 30-10-10 is that the extra P lowers the pH of the solution to 6.3.

Nitrate-based fertilizers, over time, can lead to an increase in substrate pH, while ammonium-based ones can have the opposite effect. Merely changing the pH of the applied solution does not compensate for that.

The pH of the Peter's solution and of the pour through of one of the chorotic plants was 7.3. A straight pour through of rockwool was 7.8. Have ordered a fertilizer with a high P to see if that drops the pH of the solution without having to use an acid. Peter's is high in Nitrate, probably not the best choice for water with an already high pH. The newly ordered fertilizer is relatively higher in ammonium based N than Peter's. If the higher P doesn't bring the pH down, will try the new K-lite and see about adjusting pH with acid. Assuming I will need to wait for several watering cycles before testing the pour through to see if reducing nitrates will lower the root zone pH?

Personally, I think you’re unnecessarily “forcing chemistry” on the plant.

Yes, I seem to "love" them to death. It is one reason I am interested in S/H. I don't have to worry so much about over watering.

I just realized you are in Tacoma. Forget the RO filter. Forget the tap water.
Use rainwater.

. Grow space or cistern?

 

[Ray]

The pH of the Peter's solution and of the pour through of one of the chorotic plants was 7.3. A straight pour through of rockwool was 7.8. Have ordered a fertilizer with a high P to see if that drops the pH of the solution without having to use an acid. Peter's is high in Nitrate, probably not the best choice for water with an already high pH. The newly ordered fertilizer is relatively higher in ammonium based N than Peter's. If the higher P doesn't bring the pH down, will try the new K-lite and see about adjusting pH with acid. Assuming I will need to wait for several watering cycles before testing the pour through to see if reducing nitrates will lower the root zone pH?

Adjusting that pH of the solution is not a particularly effective way of managing ththe substrate pH. Nor is messing with the minor elements. The form of the nitrogen is far more important.

I hae been using a fair amount of Grodan Rockwool mini-cubes mixed with LECA. Grodan recommends pre-treating it with an acid, which I have done routinely, and I've had no issues.

A few months ago, I experimented with rockwool to which I added just enough perlite to create air spaces between the cubes, and I neglected to pre-treat. That phrag I potted that way has been pale green using a fertilizer that is 95% nitrate/5% ammoniacal nitrogen. The pH of the 100 ppm N solution is about 4.6.

At Xavier's suggestion, I switched it to a newer version of the fertilizer that contains 85% nitrate/15% ammoniacal nitrogen. The pH of the solution is damned near identical, but the plant started greening up within weeks.

 

[gonewild]

My experience using leca results in a different opinion than Rays. Through trial and error I find the water pH to make a difference when growing in "inert" leca. Reason being is the roots are mostly exposed to air space rather than the substrate media. When irrigation water is applied it immediately soaks the roots without any buffering from the substrate. So having the fertilizer water the proper pH allows the roots to absorb the nutrients efficiently quickly. At high pH many nutrients are not available easily to the plant. If you feel you are short of iron then pH is likely the cause
Speaking of iron I add iron chelates to raise the fertilizer iron content to be between 3 and 5 ppm. And if the leaves look a little pale I double that.

I don't grow using the S/H method. I do use containers with side hole drainage about 3/8" up from the bottom to create a slight reservoir. I water 4-7 times per week with fertilizer. Never need to leach with pure water.
My fertilizer I've come back to now is the old MSU + calcium nitrate. Sometimes I add extra iron and a pinch of urea just because.

Since you are likely trying to solve a lack of nutrition problem, causing pale leaves, flushing now with pure water seems contrary to a solution.

If I were you I would use fertilizer with each watering. Lower the pH and add extra iron. Expecting to see some results in a few weeks.