Pale leaves with green veining

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Fe
This all makes perfect sense. I am sure you are correct that finding the correct balance of nutrients in S/H is more challenging than in an organic medium. And I obviously haven't found it yet. šŸ˜… I guess maybe that is part of the challenge, I want to try to figure it out. Perhaps someday I will throw in the towel and return to bark culture but I am not there yet. I will take another look at the micronutrients and also the ph and see if I can find something that should be tweaked.
In hydroponics Fe can be very unstable. The best is the FeEDDHA chelated iron because the FeEDTA breaks down quickly at pH values over 5.5. I would investigate if that is your problem - or part of it. Try lowering the pH of the solution to 5.5 to see if that helps or perhaps buy some of the Fe compound mentioned if you don't want to lower pH and try it on a few plants. You can begin to see how tricky this can be.. If that does not help you need to keep looking elsewhere. (the plant in the back of the first photo is in serious trouble).
Anyway, iron is usually the first thing to investigate if all nutrients are present and you are getting chlorosis in the newest leaves. It must be in balance with Mg, Cu and Zn. **Also check if sulphate-S is there in the Peters. Also, is the ''Cal Mag'' the one with Calcium chloride? Very bad!
Your tap water might be ok but I can't read it.
 
Agree with stone and gone wild. pH would be simplest place to start. It does look like you need to supplement Ca and Mg however. My well water has lower pH but still at 7. It has sufficient Ca and Mg so I can get away with 20-20-20 without Ca and Mg. The main reason I use this vs 30-10-10 is that the extra P lowers the pH of the solution to 6.3. I would suggest playing around with what pH you get with different fertilizer solutions then getting a pH lowering acid if needed. itā€™s also important to have sufficient buffering in solution you do add.
 
I donā€™t know what Lance is thinking, but 50 ppm TDS is hardly ā€œhighā€.

Personally, I think youā€™re unnecessarily ā€œforcing chemistryā€ on the plant. Between the Peters fertilizer and the water, theyā€™re getting all the nutrients they need. I would double the Peterā€™s dosage and drop the rest.

I had something similar happen to a single phrag. I was experimenting with using rockwool and perlite as a medium, but did not acid-treat the rockwool before use, which has likely led to the rhizosphere pH being higher than I realized. Following Xavierā€™s advice, I started giving it the new formula of K-Lite that has 15% NH4-N, rather than 2% in the original. Within a few weeks it had greened up again. (That will be my preferred blend going forward.)

Nitrate-based fertilizers, over time, can lead to an increase in substrate pH, while ammonium-based ones can have the opposite effect. Merely changing the pH of the applied solution does not compensate for that. It is more the combination of medium + plant (some have their own nitrogen-form preferences) that affect that.
 
I donā€™t know what Lance is thinking, but 50 ppm TDS is hardly ā€œhighā€.

It's hard to read the analysis report on my phone but doesn't it list the TDS at 500?
If it is actually 50 then TDS is not a problem. However the pH is to high unless I read that wrong as well is it not 8.22?

Edit... I see now the 500 TDS reading is in the maximum column and the TD's is actually 54 ppm which is not a problem. But you need to know the ppm and pH of the fertilizer solution to diagnose the pale leaf problem.
 
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Thanks all for the amazing and thoughtful advice. Apologies for the tiny water chart. I didn't respond sooner because I wanted to gather some data first.

iron is usually the first thing to investigate if all nutrients are present and you are getting chlorosis in the newest leaves.

I had chelated iron and applied it as a foliar spray to one of the chlorotic plants as an experiment, realizing it doesn't solve the problem but thinking it might at least indicate whether the deficiency is Fe or not. Didn't see an immediate change but do think the leaf has become somewhat more green over all. Don't know how long to wait before expecting a change.
A quick look at your water analysis looks like the pH is to high. Have you tested the pH of your fertilizer solution?

My pH is definitely high. Tap is consistently over 8. Realizing this probably is not helping out my newly deflasked seedlings either. Bought and used a pH lowering acid for hydroponics (Phosphoric) to get tap water down. Very small amounts result in huge swings in ph, presumably because the water is so clean? Anyway, will continue to experiment to get tap water down to about 6. Is this an appropriate pH? Wondering if I should continue to water with just adjusted pH tap and for how long before reintroducing nutrients?

The main reason I use this vs 30-10-10 is that the extra P lowers the pH of the solution to 6.3.
Nitrate-based fertilizers, over time, can lead to an increase in substrate pH, while ammonium-based ones can have the opposite effect. Merely changing the pH of the applied solution does not compensate for that.

The pH of the Peter's solution and of the pour through of one of the chorotic plants was 7.3. A straight pour through of rockwool was 7.8. Have ordered a fertilizer with a high P to see if that drops the pH of the solution without having to use an acid. Peter's is high in Nitrate, probably not the best choice for water with an already high pH. The newly ordered fertilizer is relatively higher in ammonium based N than Peter's. If the higher P doesn't bring the pH down, will try the new K-lite and see about adjusting pH with acid. Assuming I will need to wait for several watering cycles before testing the pour through to see if reducing nitrates will lower the root zone pH?
Personally, I think youā€™re unnecessarily ā€œforcing chemistryā€ on the plant.
Yes, I seem to "love" them to death. It is one reason I am interested in S/H. I don't have to worry so much about over watering.
I just realized you are in Tacoma. Forget the RO filter. Forget the tap water.
Use rainwater.
šŸ˜‚ šŸ˜‚ šŸ˜‚. Grow space or cistern?šŸ¤”
 
The pH of the Peter's solution and of the pour through of one of the chorotic plants was 7.3. A straight pour through of rockwool was 7.8. Have ordered a fertilizer with a high P to see if that drops the pH of the solution without having to use an acid. Peter's is high in Nitrate, probably not the best choice for water with an already high pH. The newly ordered fertilizer is relatively higher in ammonium based N than Peter's. If the higher P doesn't bring the pH down, will try the new K-lite and see about adjusting pH with acid. Assuming I will need to wait for several watering cycles before testing the pour through to see if reducing nitrates will lower the root zone pH?
Adjusting that pH of the solution is not a particularly effective way of managing ththe substrate pH. Nor is messing with the minor elements. The form of the nitrogen is far more important.

I hae been using a fair amount of Grodan Rockwool mini-cubes mixed with LECA. Grodan recommends pre-treating it with an acid, which I have done routinely, and I've had no issues.

A few months ago, I experimented with rockwool to which I added just enough perlite to create air spaces between the cubes, and I neglected to pre-treat. That phrag I potted that way has been pale green using a fertilizer that is 95% nitrate/5% ammoniacal nitrogen. The pH of the 100 ppm N solution is about 4.6.

At Xavier's suggestion, I switched it to a newer version of the fertilizer that contains 85% nitrate/15% ammoniacal nitrogen. The pH of the solution is damned near identical, but the plant started greening up within weeks.
 
My experience using leca results in a different opinion than Rays. Through trial and error I find the water pH to make a difference when growing in "inert" leca. Reason being is the roots are mostly exposed to air space rather than the substrate media. When irrigation water is applied it immediately soaks the roots without any buffering from the substrate. So having the fertilizer water the proper pH allows the roots to absorb the nutrients efficiently quickly. At high pH many nutrients are not available easily to the plant. If you feel you are short of iron then pH is likely the cause
Speaking of iron I add iron chelates to raise the fertilizer iron content to be between 3 and 5 ppm. And if the leaves look a little pale I double that.

I don't grow using the S/H method. I do use containers with side hole drainage about 3/8" up from the bottom to create a slight reservoir. I water 4-7 times per week with fertilizer. Never need to leach with pure water.
My fertilizer I've come back to now is the old MSU + calcium nitrate. Sometimes I add extra iron and a pinch of urea just because.

Since you are likely trying to solve a lack of nutrition problem, causing pale leaves, flushing now with pure water seems contrary to a solution.

If I were you I would use fertilizer with each watering. Lower the pH and add extra iron. Expecting to see some results in a few weeks.
 
Bingo!

That's one of the things that bugs me most about orchid growing advice - "do this" with no explanation of "why" or that "this works under my growing conditions and how much I like to mess with my plants."
Reminds me of Goldilocks. There is an optimum. How you get there? Game's wide open.
 
Thanks all for the amazing and thoughtful advice. Apologies for the tiny water chart. I didn't respond sooner because I wanted to gather some data first.



I had chelated iron and applied it as a foliar spray to one of the chlorotic plants as an experiment, realizing it doesn't solve the problem but thinking it might at least indicate whether the deficiency is Fe or not. Didn't see an immediate change but do think the leaf has become somewhat more green over all. Don't know how long to wait before expecting a change.


My pH is definitely high. Tap is consistently over 8. Realizing this probably is not helping out my newly deflasked seedlings either. Bought and used a pH lowering acid for hydroponics (Phosphoric) to get tap water down. Very small amounts result in huge swings in ph, presumably because the water is so clean? Anyway, will continue to experiment to get tap water down to about 6. Is this an appropriate pH? Wondering if I should continue to water with just adjusted pH tap and for how long before reintroducing nutrients?




The pH of the Peter's solution and of the pour through of one of the chorotic plants was 7.3. A straight pour through of rockwool was 7.8. Have ordered a fertilizer with a high P to see if that drops the pH of the solution without having to use an acid. Peter's is high in Nitrate, probably not the best choice for water with an already high pH. The newly ordered fertilizer is relatively higher in ammonium based N than Peter's. If the higher P doesn't bring the pH down, will try the new K-lite and see about adjusting pH with acid. Assuming I will need to wait for several watering cycles before testing the pour through to see if reducing nitrates will lower the root zone pH?

Yes, I seem to "love" them to death. It is one reason I am interested in S/H. I don't have to worry so much about over watering.

šŸ˜‚ šŸ˜‚ šŸ˜‚. Grow space or cistern?šŸ¤”
Sounds like youā€™re on the right track. Just remember as long as paphs have good moisture they donā€™t tend to spontaneously die so keep perfecting things but donā€™t let it freak you out if youā€™re not 100% right
 
When irrigation water is applied it immediately soaks the roots without any buffering from the substrate. So having the fertilizer water the proper pH allows the roots to absorb the nutrients efficiently quickly.
It takes roots under a minute to become fully saturated. No potting medium is ā€œbufferingā€ the applied solution that quickly, so they always absorb at the chemistry that is applied. The pH effect within the pot comes in over time and reaction with the substrate, not instantly.

In the case of my rockwool phrag example, above, one can look at this scenario:

When a plant absorbs a negatively-charged nitrate ion, it must secrete another negative ion to compensate. Ammonium ion absorption (+) results in a positive ion secretion.

The untreated rockwool has a high pH, indicating the presence of excessive negative ions. If the plant must secrete negative ions, the substrate chemistry will ā€œfight against itā€ as the plant is trying to add to the negative ion concentration, and nature ā€œhatesā€ imbalances. That resistance can stifle the natural processes within the plant, potentially causing issues. If, on the other hand, the plant, due to it being fed with positively-charged ammonium ions, must emit positive ions to compensate, the substrate will favor the absorption, supporting the plantā€™s efforts.

That process is not instantaneous; it takes time to have an effect. In pH-neutral substrates that are kept wet and flushed frequently, the accumulation of excessive ions, + or -, takes a very, very long time, if it occurs at all, and the use of a fertilizer solution at pH 6 or pH 8 is inconsequential, unless the particular plant has a special affinity for one ion over the other.
At high pH many nutrients are not available easily to the plant.
Unless the pH is so out-of-whack that it is likely damaging, thatā€™s just plain untrue.

pH is a measure of the ratio of H+ and OH- in solution. If one solution contains 100 H+ and 1 OH-, and another contains 100-billion H+ and 1-billion OH-, the pH values are identical at 6. The first isnā€™t going to do anything negative to the plant while the second one might - due to the concentration, not the pH value.

I don't grow using the S/H method. I do use containers with side hole drainage about 3/8" up from the bottom to create a slight reservoir. I water 4-7 times per week with fertilizer. Never need to leach with pure water.
Sorry to burst your bubble, Lance , but that is THE definition of semi-hydroponics, as I conceived of it some 25-30 years ago.

If you have a decent pH meter or even sensitive test strips, I urge you to test the liquid in the reservoirs at various times after watering. If you water in the morning on a nice, sunny day, try it midday, just before sunset, and again just after sunrise the next day. I think youā€™ll find that your carefully adjust solution pH isnā€™t as stable as you believe.

When I did that decades ago, I was astounded at the swings, whether I had irrigated with a pH-adjusted fertilizer solution or the same solution without adjustment. Thatā€™s when I grasped that the plant, the substrate, and I suppose, the microbes that live in them affect the rhizosphere pH far more than do the solutions we apply, so simply stopped being overly concerned about it.
 
Sorry to burst your bubble, Lance , but that is THE definition of semi-hydroponics, as I conceived of it some 25-30 years ago.
Why the condescending attitude? I don't exist in a bubble, far from it.
FYI I've been using the side drainage method since 1975 when it was recommended to me by a plant nutrition researcher at UC Davis. Granted he did not call it "simi hydro".
 

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