Phrag besseae 'Lovebug'

[Heather]

It might be nice to be a judge. I have clerked, and sat in on AOS judging many times, but apply to be a student? Not unless I win the lottery to be able to fly to Vancouver or Toronto once a month, plus judge at other shows. I hear AOS judging doesn't pay much either.oke:

Exactly! Someone else would have to pay my travel expenses. It's not exactly practical to become a judge if you're on a fixed budget.

 

[NYEric]

A few times I was asked to enter the judging program, but at this point I'm too busy with other hobbies and activities. The program requires a lot of commitment in the form of travel, study, writing, and memory. Maybe when I stop playing competitive sports I'll join, but I do give credit to those who complete the judging requirements. And PS, numbers can't give one the whole picture about a flower or plant.

 

[paphioland]

And PS, numbers can't give one the whole picture about a flower or plant.

That's my point. Sometimes the only accurate thing in an award description are the measurements which don't tell you all that much. Even those aren't right many times.

 

[Ernie]

Yep, you gotta be rich or nuts or both to be a judge. I guess I'm nuts, because I certainly am not rich! Just happened to be lucky enough to find a great crew to carpool with, so I only pay 1/4-1/5 of the gas and 1/2-1/3 for hotels. If folks out there don't know, the pay is six figures!!! $000,000. When you do something good, they even consider a raise by adding a zero! It's impossible to force people to know "everything" on that salary, but damnit, we do a lot of training, and most of us try our best.

Kevin, a good example of your point is Neo falcata. In Des Moines, we might have awarded some of the "plainer" ones if we just knew what made them special. We do what we can with the resources available to us. If we had a Japanese orchids nut in the crew, they coulda stepped up for the plant. On the flip side, I was judging out of region in a hot, dry part of the US not terribly overrun by slippers, and they were drooling all over an average at best Paph. liemianum (mis-entered as one of the other cochlos). I gave my summary last and pretty much killed its chances for an award. Felt terrible about it, but it was the correct thing to do. They schooled my butt on Tolumnias though! Anyway, it is a constant learning process. There's no single book to study. You just have to look at lots and lots and lots of plants.

Anyway, we all agree that this besseae is AWESOME!

-Ernie

 

[Jason Fischer]

Hey Jason.

Who told you that it was 3N? I also thought this because of the name but that referred to the the flower count.

You might be biased concerning cross ideas lol:wink:

I might be confusing myself, but the JF that sold for mega bucks a few years back did not have a clonal name that I could see (and I forgot to ask) when I took a pic of it at Terry's. I had thought that was the 'Triplicate'. Whatever it was, Terry said it was made with 'Terry's Choice'.

Hey, I'll buy flasks from you, just make that cross .

 

[slippertalker]

True, if you are an AOS judge, you should be an expert on all genera, but that obviously isn't the case. On top of that, there is personal bias in judging which I don't think should be allowed. Judges should judge based on what they have learned only. Why do some plants get passed over by one judging team, then awarded by another? That doesn't seem fair.

AOS Judges are NOT expert on all genera, in fact that is an impossible task for any person. Most know a little about a lot and are expert in a few. Bias is an environmental situation, we are all products of our backgrounds and base of knowledge. Ethics are always a consideration.....

Judges can determine quality even if they are not expert in a certain genus by comparing prior awards and consulting with other judges that are experienced in those areas. With all of the data from Orchidwiz and AQ+, it is much easier to do this. The process is still an art based on stats and visual impact.

Generally plants that are passed over by one team are not considered by others. The nomination process screens plants to be considered by a team of judges, and whether they proceed to award a plant is opinion based on their experience.

I find that people that aren't involved in the judging process have assumptions that are generally not true, and that they look at it as some sort of scary, obtuse rolling of the dice. The bottom line is that obvious quality always shines through, and marginal quality is where the debate lies.

 

[paphioland]

The bottom line is that obvious quality always shines through, and marginal quality is where the debate lies.

I have agreed with somethings you have said but this is absolutely not true.

 

[Heather]

I have agreed with somethings you have said but this is absolutely not true.

And precisely what is your truth based on?

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

I think these photos prove to me what I have felt all along..........besseae as a species is still far superior to its hybrids...I've since lost interest in most phrag hybrids....but I'll always be thrilled with a good besseae! Eric

 

[paphioland]

And precisely what is your truth based on?

Numerous injustices I have seen committed and awards being given to plants that had no business being awarded. Look at the OZ roths for proof they were awarded haphazardly. Some of the best not awarded. I have seen an album bigger and better than any coloratum form be mismeasured and insulted.There are many more OUTRAGEOUS things I have witnessed with plants that are not my own and my own. Too many to list. I have never seen an american judge able to understand modern complex breeding. I don't bring plants for judging unless it is very convenient. Like I said I don't place all that much value in them. They change my idea of the value of a plant little maybe not at all because I judge the quality myself and see what I think it is worth.

 

[paphioland]

Concerning being an AOS judge I would not be able to do it. I would be very biased toward paphs and phrags since I have little interest in other types of orchids. I have also no real desire to judge, my interest is in owning select plants and hybridizing. I judge plants all the time just not in the public's eye . Being a judge is a tough thing and there are good ones out there. It is the system in my mind that needs retooling.

 

[paphioland]

I might be confusing myself, but the JF that sold for mega bucks a few years back did not have a clonal name that I could see (and I forgot to ask) when I took a pic of it at Terry's. I had thought that was the 'Triplicate'. Whatever it was, Terry said it was made with 'Terry's Choice'.

Hey, I'll buy flasks from you, just make that cross .

The plant that went to Fumi was 'Triplicate'. HMM. I have heard differently. Let me do some research.

 

[Kevin]

Concerning being an AOS judge I would not be able to do it. I would be very biased toward paphs and phrags since I have little interest in other types of orchids. I have also no real desire to judge, my interest is in owning select plants and hybridizing. I judge plants all the time just not in the public's eye . Being a judge is a tough thing and there are good ones out there. It is the system in my mind that needs retooling.

I agree! I would try to judge all plants equally, but to have the same genuine interest in all types of orchids would be difficult. The system does need work.

 

[Kevin]

Does anyone have pics of the parents of either of these plants, and/or a pic of a 'regular' besseae to compare?

 

[NYEric]

Ummm, jump [go] to search forum, type in besseae highlight phrag. photos, hit 'search'.

 

[Kevin]

Thanks Eric, but what I was trying for, is to get a kind of split-screen, so we all could see a good comparison of what has been done in breeding of Phrag. besseae. But, I'll take what I can get.

 

[slippertalker]

I have agreed with somethings you have said but this is absolutely not true.

Maybe you are looking at something differently than I am, but a superior flower is always obvious to most judges. I can easily discern AM or above quality at the first look. One thing for certain is that I, and most people have a biased eye towards their own plants. Some plants that I thought were no brainers have been overlooked while others that I have brought with no shot in my opinion have been awarded, and I'm a judge. Most of the time, the original opinion is a good one.

Anticipating that your plant is definitely award quality is very dangerous, especially for people that don't judge orchids. Remember that they are being compared to a vast database of plants, and even though the plant might be very nice that doesn't mean it is award quality.

Complex hybrid paphs have a high bar set for quality much as white phalaenopsis and standard cattleyas. The plant needs to be exceptional to receive an AM, and even though you have to grow a large number of seedlings to get to this point that doesn't mean that mediocre plants should be awarded.

 

[paphioland]

Maybe you are looking at something differently than I am, but a superior flower is always obvious to most judges. I can easily discern AM or above quality at the first look. One thing for certain is that I, and most people have a biased eye towards their own plants. Some plants that I thought were no brainers have been overlooked while others that I have brought with no shot in my opinion have been awarded, and I'm a judge. Most of the time, the original opinion is a good one.

Anticipating that your plant is definitely award quality is very dangerous, especially for people that don't judge orchids. Remember that they are being compared to a vast database of plants, and even though the plant might be very nice that doesn't mean it is award quality.

Complex hybrid paphs have a high bar set for quality much as white phalaenopsis and standard cattleyas. The plant needs to be exceptional to receive an AM, and even though you have to grow a large number of seedlings to get to this point that doesn't mean that mediocre plants should be awarded.

Like I said I don't bother bringing my plants for judging really. I will still respectfully but strongly disagree with you. I have seen decisions that make me cringe and they were not my plants. I have seen plants that might be the best of their kind in the world snubbed. I have also seen crap awarded.

To be candid, I think it is actually the opposite. I have seen more of many types of paphs than most judges have. They only see a small population of plants that are brought in for judging. They don't travel around the world and to top hybridizer's greenhouses to see what is going on. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a pathologist once. She told me that there are many pathologists who know the academic part incredibly well. There are only a few who can translate that into seeing the nuisances and patterns at the world renowned level. Judges are just humans. Just because you go through the training and know the info doesn't mean you can translate that into actually seeing the differences. Very few people have exceptional "eyes"

 

[NYEric]

I have been to some AOS judgings and think mostly crap didn't get awarded and mostly exceptional stuff was. Of course there were some that I would have awarded that were passed. [The best Mem. Dick Clements flower I ever saw was passed at last GNYOS; probably because it only had one flower! ]

 

[paphlady]

Looks like both Jason and Paphioland are correct. According to my research, 'Triplicate' is a double entendre. It's a triploid (made with 'Terry's Choice') and it had 3 flowers opened at the same time (very unusual for a Phrag Jason Fischer) the first time it bloomed.

In regards to AOS judging, I think ignorance can be forgiven, but jealousy and corruption should not be tolerated. Take a guess which happens more often!