What is the real Paph primulinum?

[Drorchid]

interesting...

Robert, you mentioned the cross 'Ching Hua #3' x 'Ching Hua #5', and showed obvious differences to what you present here as true primulinum...

I have received one plant of the cross 'Ching Hua #3' x 'Ching Hua #5' from you, and this plant is currently in bloom. However, the flower is more similar (color, shape and size - unless you have really tiny thumbs ) to the smaller flower you present here... Doe sthis mean, this cross would also have such a great variability, that separating it from real primulinum would be impossible to 100%, based on size, color and shape? (I do not speak from fragrance, I have not checked if my plant is fragrant yet)

Yes, it is true I have noticed some variation within the plants for size of the Taiwanese plants. The one that I showed probably had the largest flowers and that is why I kept it. If the Taiwanese strain is a hybrid (say (moquetteanum x primulinum) x primulinum) you would expect to see some variation in flower size. Some would have the size of a pure primulinum and some the size of a moquetteanum. So, yes to answer your question, It will be hard to separate them just based on size (although the average size of the flowers within a hybrid population will be larger than in the pure species). However if you see some mottling in the foliage, that is a good tell tell sign that you are dealing with a hybrid, as pure primulinum's never have any mottling in the foliage. Another characteristic that I find different is the dorsal. in a pure primulinum it is not as round, and somewhat reflexed. In the hybrid it tends to be larger, flatter and more round in shape.

Robert

 

[Drorchid]

Paph. primulinum = without mottled leaves ?

Here you can see a former normally plant, which was cultivated 2 years under
fluorescent tube "Fluora" from an orchidfriend - chlorose?? :

What you are showing is not the same type of mottling that I was showing, but is more of a nutrient deficiency (chlorosis).

Robert

 

[Drorchid]

Interesting topic Robert, with the mottle in the leaves you highlighted, is there a possibility that there could be a dose of P.moquettianum fma flavoiride in the breeding ???

Not necessarily the flavoride form (and according to Sanderianum that does not even exist), but I do think moquetteanum is in the background; If you would cross a regular moquetteanum to a yellow primulinum, the resulting hybrid would have all colored flowers. If you backcross the hybrid to the yellow primulinum 50% of them should turn out yellow and 50% colored.

Robert

 

[Drorchid]

Robert pictures are great so is his presentation of the true vs fake ones... As for the fragrance, try to get several people to smell the flowers, some will definitely find it. The same for rothschildianum, they all have a pepper fragrance for me and some friends, and no smell for some others...

Moquetteanum fma. flavoviride NEVER existed at any time, they are all. without a single exception, hybrids. The same for glaucophyllum album, such a plant does not exist.

Sanderianum, do you think that both our line's of primulinums derived from plants that Jerry got 20 to 25 years ago are the True primulinum ? (and when I say both our line's I mean the yellow form and the purpurescens form).

Robert

 

[SelectOrchids]

Sanderianum, do you think that both our line's of primulinums derived from plants that Jerry got 20 to 25 years ago are the True primulinum ? (and when I say both our line's I mean the yellow form and the purpurescens form).

Robert

Nearly sure about that... Even the leaves do match according to your pictures.

About the Ching Hua and this kind of things, the Taiwanese are famous for doing first the listing of the plants they plan to sell, primulinum 1 x 2, or sanderianum 140cm x sanderianum98cm flasks, then they contact their friends who have something that could match, take the plants, and put the tags with nice pictures. It is very rare that in Taiwan the seedlings are really of the given parents. So if the supplier was out of stock of the primulinum AxB sold under the CH1 x CH2, Ching Hua will order from another supplier primulinum, and put the tags. End of the story.

That was really a joke with those rothschildianum Big Garden x Dou Fong, Dou Fong x Flying Eagle, etc... The Taiwaneses were swapping the tags so fast that they did not realize that they could supply the same customer with 2-3 different strains of rothschildianum months apart under the same name. Roths have leaves that are quite typical of the strains, and some were from the giant leafed roths, some from Charles E x Borneo, some from Rex x MM selfings, lots of stuff sold under many different names. Some of the batches were of extremely high flower quality, but none had the proper tag.



I remember some years ago I saw a novelty hybrid of stonei x ??? that was made by Stewart orchids. It looked like a stonei on steroids, there were pictures on another paphiopedilum forum let's say, and there were plenty of seedlings that have been released maybe 15 years ago... Then a couple years ago, the Taiwanese started to get stonei awarded that look a lot like that complex hybrid - which is really not easy to tell apart from stonei... I got flasks of those awarded stonei in february. Today the seedlings are over 30cm leafspan. I am nearly sure they are not pure stonei to grow at that speed, and their growth is so uniform... Stonei will maybe be the next one on the list of fake species.

As for stonei album, I got one of the earlier divisions, but there were too many divisions sold 10 years ago. I knew of only 3 sold at that time, but in fact, the sellers asked every customer to shut up, and the total, to my knowledge, is over 20 divisions. So again I have a BIG doubt as to what those stonei album are, or even if stonei album really exists, or if it is not an F2 of Mt Toro made with philippinense album...

I know that stonei album x philippinense album does not give albino progeny, but there are several different strains of philippinense album around, with different albinism behavior, so it is not a proof that stonei album is a real, different albino. Time will tell, but I would be highly interested to know people who have bloomed the selfings....

 

[Ernie]

If I wanted the species primulinum, I would absolutely take the one that is certain. I would be unhappy if I purchased a primulinum thinking it was the species, only to find it was a hybrid.

That being said, I'd love to have the hybrid white-pouched primulinum, but I'd also want to know the true parents.

Dot,

I'm with you. I like to know the real identity of my plants. Glad ncart started this discussion.

-Ernie

 

[cnycharles]

Now the question is, which one do you prefer, and do you really care if it is a true species or a hybrid. If you would have the choice to buy a plant that you know for sure is the true Paph primulinum, but has smaller flowers with a some what reflexed dorsal, or you could buy a plant that is also labeled Paph. primulinum, but there is a chance it may actually be a hybrid. This flower is much larger and has a better shape to it. Which one would you buy (if the price was the same)?

Just curious to see what peoples opinions are.....

Robert

If I wanted to own a plant of paph primulinum to be part of a collection, I would be buying the smaller (true) plant. The shape wouldn't matter if it was the true species. If I just wanted a plant with a big yellow flower who cares what the name was, then I'd buy the taiwanese one since the name wouldn't really matter. I let an uncheap plant die (mealybugs) because it was obvious that is wasn't the true species I thought when I bought it, though I have another that's a phal that I'll probably keep because of who I bought it from (though I am still trying to find the true species (of phal mariae))

 

[Roy]

If I wanted to own a plant of paph primulinum to be part of a collection, I would be buying the smaller (true) plant. The shape wouldn't matter if it was the true species. If I just wanted a plant with a big yellow flower who cares what the name was, then I'd buy the taiwanese one since the name wouldn't really matter. I let an uncheap plant die (mealybugs) because it was obvious that is wasn't the true species I thought when I bought it, though I have another that's a phal that I'll probably keep because of who I bought it from (though I am still trying to find the true species (of phal mariae))

This all sounds good for the hobbyist but when it comes to the commercial growers using these questionable clones, the results are adding to the major confusion in the stud book we already have. That is, no matter what the label says when one of these clones are used, we are not buying what we think we are. This also leads to the show bench and a judge asking, "is this true to form", under the present discussion we would have to say "doubtful".
Further breeding with theses seedlings just multiplies the problem out of site.

 

[SelectOrchids]

This all sounds good for the hobbyist but when it comes to the commercial growers using these questionable clones, the results are adding to the major confusion in the stud book we already have. That is, no matter what the label says when one of these clones are used, we are not buying what we think we are. This also leads to the show bench and a judge asking, "is this true to form", under the present discussion we would have to say "doubtful".
Further breeding with theses seedlings just multiplies the problem out of site.

That's a key problem... There is the same story with the Brazilian cattleyas, the Brazilians have bred so much the catts walkeriana with nobilior, labiata with trianae, etc... that now any 'real' species looks bleak compared to those fancy colored fake species...

For paphs, there are a lot of weird plants over the last 15 years mostly. Before the problem was quite rare. I tend to think that in the early days whoever had roth sedlings, or something like that, would sell them. And there were few nurseries in fact. Now, with the competition, many people are ready to invent or sell hybrids to make profit.

Some weeks ago I have seen as well a charlesworthii album in Thailand, massive plant. It is clearly an hybrid with a complex green paph, due to the leaves, and to its owner, but if that plant goes for judging, for sure there will be no way to award a real charlesworthii album anymore...