You be the judge

[FrankRC]

I don't know that we could have a judging system without commercial growers involved, who else has the dedication to orchids and the financial freedom to participate? I don't see many people being deep enough into the hobby that they want to become a judge without also growing enough plants to have to operate at least a boutique online nursery.

The issue is, and please don't take this wrong way, awards = money, and at times, a lot of it. I am not referencing the "super hobbyists", who has a big collection, makes his own crosses, and wants to show his plants. I am talking about those that need to keep their sales up in order to keep the lights on and make the payments on their Lexus. Manipulating the judging system is something that far too many commercial nursery owners have done over the past few decades and exploiting the ethical weakness of the AOS judging system has become common place. Any judging center that has a commercial nurseryman as a student or accredited judge should be disqualified from judging any plant that originates from that commercial nursery. Let's not be naive and think that removal of tags prevents knowing who the owner is. Second, I know commercial nurseries (I am not going there in this forum) who only take their plants to one specific judge and bypass some judging centers entirely and go long distances to other judging centers in order to get the awards they predetermine their plants need to keep sales up. I have first hand knowledge of many examples of this. Depending on who you are and where you are located you should be assigned a judging center. Judges should disqualify themselves if there is any whiff of a conflict of interest at a show where there is AOS judging but none do. There are no ethical standards, no mechanisms in place to address the obvious conflicts of interest, and far too many unqualified judges awarding mislabeled plants. We haven't gotten to the obvious lack of award quality in some awards yet either. Leslie's idea of peer review is a good one and a good start.

I am not insulting anyone so don't take anything written as anything other than a negative impression of the entire judging system based on decades of first hand knowledge and observation. I am not calling anyone a crook, although in other areas of society such conduct would certainly qualify as such.

Best,

 

[Tony]

I agree with the majority of what you're saying, I just don't think it's possible to have a truly blind judging system. If you spend enough time in a center you know who the regular exhibitors are, what they grow, and the general appearance of their plants. For example if you see a multifloral Paph grown in rockwool at the Carolinas Center you know damn well that's me lol. I do agree 100% on your thoughts regarding judge/center shopping. Getting awards at shows is one thing but if a grower is consistently traveling outside their home region for judging that ought to raise a red flag, either their home center isn't evaluating plants fairly or they have a hookup at the destination.

I'll say again that I'm very happy overall with my center and the judging team, none of the judges are commercial growers and they do their best to avoid conflicts of interest. One of the judges lives near me and I'll send plants up with him if I can't make it that weekend. He always recuses himself from judging those plants and won't offer any commentary on them until after judging has concluded. Over the summer I even had two judges recuse themselves because they saw my wife post the plant on Facebook the night before. They do a great job of making things as fair as possible and I'm glad to have them instead of some of the other centers I've heard horror stories about.

 

[FrankRC]

It might stand a much better chance of flying if the re-evaluation was being requested by some one within the system. Of course, just my opinion.

Good idea, but not just a reevaluation of the plant, a reevaluation of the process. Why is someone who lives in the Chicago area taking plants to Denver for judging? Why would a commercial dealer in Hawaii send all his flowers to the mainland? Why does one commercial nursery have so many awards? No, it's not because 80% of their plants are so much better than everyone else's, but it sure does keep sales up. Should G23 plants be judged against jungle plants or G2 plants? Should genetically modified or enhanced plants be judged against those that are not? Is that fair? What mechanisms can be put in place to evaluate and sanction judges who award hybrids as species (should the ability to properly identify the plants be part of the accreditation process)?

When a plant is awarded the name of the judge should go along with the award, not just the judging center. Judges should be scored along with the plants they award. One commercial nursery received 18 awards in the past year? Gee isn't it odd they all came from the same judge 500 miles past the judging center down the road from their nursery. At present, the greater orchid community has no visibility into these matters that would allow us to evaluate the awards and judges who bestow those awards and no transparency into exactly what is being awarded, beyond the name. Would an award given to a 4n genetically modified plant disqualify all non genetically modified plants that come after?

Ethical issues abound, conflicts of interest abound, and the qualifications of some judges are questionable. The amount of money in awards for the commercial industry taints the entire system. Awards are nice to have, but given the issues and lack of any impetus by the AOS to implement corrective mechanisms awards are nice to have but are no means dispositive of a superior quality plant, especially to those of us who don't agree with the rounder and bigger standard applied across the board.

Best,

 

[FrankRC]

"Obvious ethical issues"?
"Glaring Ethical deficiencies"?
"Obvious lack of adequate knowledge on the part of some judges"?
Some pretty strong accusations being made from outside of the system. Why criticize from the outside? Why not join the program to improve things? There are so many things I would like to reply to this but I won't. From a simple post about an orchid with two flowers on it, it has come down to this?

As awards are subjective, so are the views of those "outside" the "system". What "system" is that? Are we all not part of the orchid community and thus, not all part of the same "system"? Since this is not about me, I will spare you my orchid CV. As we can disagree as to whether a plant is award quality and whether the process that awarded that plant is free from conflicts of interest, ethical issues and the ability of the judge to award the plant and identify that plant cannot be questioned, we can go back and forth like a ping pong ball about ethics, conflicts of interest, and judge qualifications.

Best

 

[FrankRC]

As people are just using the same stances back and forth and are apparently not willing to accept the other views, I'm considering stopping responses to this thread.

Any support or objection to that? I mean that seriously - y'all haven't quite gotten to the "Jane, you ignorant ****" stage, and it still might.

I would allow this thread to continue, if only because of the number of outstanding and qualified orchid people, some of whom have decades of serious interest and growing and research to offer, voicing concerns and perceptions of the AOS judging system. This thread would searchable on Goggle and maybe one day the right person will get here and this thread will act as a record of feedback the AOS might not otherwise be able to see or hear.

 

[FrankRC]

As for obstinate judges who won't budge off a low score to kill an award, if they can't provide a valid argument to back up their point they should recuse themselves.

Dave, I sat in on judging once some years ago where a Paph species was submitted for judging (former northeast judging centering in the NYC area). The plant and flower were exceptional. The judges took the plant outside in natural light to check if the color was real and not somehow added by the grower. It was that good. The result, when it came time to announce, was "this is bigger than the last 3 AMs, has better color and the dorsal is larger than the last 3 AMs and is better shaped atop the flower. However, this species has already received 38 awards to date and I don't think it needs another one." The same judge then proceeded to swoon over 2 sub par Phrags from a well known local commercial grower and notwithstanding both Phrags in question 'not measuring up' he gave 2 HCCs because "these are award quality flowers on well grown plants".

BTW, the aforementioned Philadelphia judging center was, at the time, an epicenter of what many in the northeast perceived to be dubious ethics. More than a few whispers were uttered about a judge at that center taking things of value from one commercial nursery he seemed intent on bestowing every award he could (as prior, no, not going there here). That commercial nursery took in a group of newly bloomed Paph bellatlulum they had propagated from seed for judging. There were ~20 pants in the group. The grower got 7 awards. Up next, one of the best Phrag besseae albums I have ever seen. Result? "The yellow color appears off". No award.

A well known breeder/grower in the western half of the United States recently started mailing in his flowers for judging to a judge almost have the country away. His receipt of awards doubled in the first year over what he was getting at his local judging center (again, no, not going there publically).

One well known commercial Phrag nursery took their best Phrag besseae in for judging at their local judging center. The result? No award. Apparently frustrated and intent on having the FCC needed for reputation and sales, and in violation of AOS rules, the spike was sent to another judging center who bestowed on that commercial nursery an FCC. Yes, every word of this is true.

I could fill a page with other examples but I don't think I need to here.

There is no valid argument to this other than ethical issues and conflicts of interest.

Best,

 

[Royal Rea]

Very true and interesting Frank, from an AOC perspective I have seen a fantastic Paph Harold Koopowitz on the show bench (The plants' owner was a Commerical grower) and when it was suggested to be put up for an award by judges it was rejected as being I quote "Too ostentatious". I believe on a subsequent flowering it obtained a FCC in a much harder judging panel, and well worth it. But I think there is a lot of jealousy at times with judges in various panels.

 

[Paph Paradise]

Dave, I sat in on judging once some years ago where a Paph species was submitted for judging (former northeast judging centering in the NYC area). The plant and flower were exceptional. The judges took the plant outside in natural light to check if the color was real and not somehow added by the grower. It was that good. The result, when it came time to announce, was "this is bigger than the last 3 AMs, has better color and the dorsal is larger than the last 3 AMs and is better shaped atop the flower. However, this species has already received 38 awards to date and I don't think it needs another one." The same judge then proceeded to swoon over 2 sub par Phrags from a well known local commercial grower and notwithstanding both Phrags in question 'not measuring up' he gave 2 HCCs because "these are award quality flowers on well grown plants".

BTW, the aforementioned Philadelphia judging center was, at the time, an epicenter of what many in the northeast perceived to be dubious ethics. More than a few whispers were uttered about a judge at that center taking things of value from one commercial nursery he seemed intent on bestowing every award he could (as prior, no, not going there here). That commercial nursery took in a group of newly bloomed Paph bellatlulum they had propagated from seed for judging. There were ~20 pants in the group. The grower got 7 awards. Up next, one of the best Phrag besseae albums I have ever seen. Result? "The yellow color appears off". No award.

A well known breeder/grower in the western half of the United States recently started mailing in his flowers for judging to a judge almost have the country away. His receipt of awards doubled in the first year over what he was getting at his local judging center (again, no, not going there publically).

One well known commercial Phrag nursery took their best Phrag besseae in for judging at their local judging center. The result? No award. Apparently frustrated and intent on having the FCC needed for reputation and sales, and in violation of AOS rules, the spike was sent to another judging center who bestowed on that commercial nursery an FCC. Yes, every word of this is true.

I could fill a page with other examples but I don't think I need to here.

There is no valid argument to this other than ethical issues and conflicts of interest.

Best,

I agree that there are some as*****s that can ruin a team (or even a judging center). If I run across someone like that I will stand up to them and challenge their position. I have been told that I can be very intimidating, which came as a surprise to me (well, maybe not but I thought that was limited to the hockey arena)! I wouldn't have done that when I was new to judging, but I've been doing this a while and I travel to many centers around the country. I see more plants than most judges.
The main issue I see is that some areas are very 'loose' with awards and others are very tight. You will need to pry those points out of their cold, dead hands. There is no standardized training. I'm not sure how the AOS would put something like that in place but it seems like that could help address the issues of inconsistent scoring across the country to some extent. As for corruption, perceived or real, that's up to the JC to investigate and correct. It would probably take multiple complaints about an exhibitor/judge to get any action but if someone sees something fishy they should notify the AOS. I can only speak for my ethics...if you asked me to score a plant from my best friend or my worst enemy I would score it the same way. I am scoring a flower, not a person.
Commercial growers and judging centers? Our center would not exist without commercial growers. I'm sure that is true for many others. There are 3 in our group. Alan at Gold Country and I have the same philosophy regarding awards...we would rather see our customers get them. Most of the awards the two of us have received over the last few years were because we brought plants in when we thought there wouldn't be very many entries. Just trying to give the judges something to look at. I did that two nights ago in San Francisco when I was speaking at their meeting. Some of you may have seen my Facebook/Instagram post. There were no plants entered for judging. I was practically begging the members to buy a Paph Helen Milton and take it across the hall for judging. Nobody did so I entered it at the last minute. 81 point AM/AOS. When they announced to award to the group people turned to me and asked if that was the plant I had been trying to get them to enter...um, yes.
Do some commercial growers work the system to their advantage? Probably. Again, if you see something, say something. The AOS has to respond if enough people make specific complaints.

Dave

 

[big923cattleya]

Thank you Dave! Just a wonderful post.

I will add two things if I may. These were commented on recently in this thread. We judge a plant in teams of 3. Three certified judges. Certified are accredited and associate. No one judge can pass on or award a plant all by themselves. It is scored by a team.
We keep a minimum of 2 teams going at our monthly judgings. If a single judge were to get stubborn and low ball a plant, and then refuse to rescore, we pass the plant to the other team. If they get such a plant, they should start the process, research and opinions from scratch. If they can’t agree on the award, or fall outside of the six point range for an HCC, the plant does not get awarded. We do not manufacture a team in order to get three scores that then allow it to be awarded. Hope that makes sense.
If team #1 scores a plant 83, 82 and 75 points and decide not to rescore, it should go to team #2. Team two starts all over from scratch. This happened once since I moved to Michigan 6 years ago. Team #2 gave it an AM. In the above case, the new scores by team two were 82, 82, 76, within the six point range. Average those to 80.00, an AM. The first three scores of 83,82, 75 average out to 80.00 also but exceed the 6 point range by two points.
Oh yes. We have a center chair for judging. He/she typically does not score plants. It is their job to make sure that no plant gets assigned to a team that the owner is serving on as a judge or student. (Or observing if possible)
Oh and one last thing, we do not take plants outside to see if the breeders or hybridizers have added color(s), we take them outside to evaluate the color in “good, natural light”, away from indoor lighting. Indoor lighting often creates unnatural hues.
We can also better assess things like Diamond dust and crystalline out side.

 

[cborchids]

Pass. Smaller, crowded, less floriferous. What I have my teams do is to look at the lowest recent HCC to see if there's wiggle room. If not, it doesn/t take much to sink it.

 

[cborchids]

On the other issues, some folks are shady. Some centers less well informed, but Orchidpro is a huge step up from the Awards Quarterly in terms of seeing what's been done. A species has enough awards? Copout. And yes we joke in our center about the one that always gives FCCs to their favorite commercial grower.

 

[littlefrog]

I am a vendor (very small) and judge (30+ years) and get maybe 10-12 awards per year lately? Something like that. I consider it my AOS tax. I try not to exhibit plants in shows that are not the best representatives of their type that I own - I'll show the best ones and sell the rest. So when plants get pulled from my display I'm not surprised. I show what I know. The rare award that I'm not expecting is usually to a genus I don't grow much of.

I might be an exception as a vendor, as I don't have a profit motive. I don't make my living selling orchids (and at this stage in my 'real life' career I don't need to). I just enjoy talking to customers at shows. Nice if I cover my costs and a beverage or two at the local microbrewery. But I still do it when I don't cover my costs... Really a hobby/vocation more than a profession. Awards aren't a financial incentive. I don't sell divisions for any substantial premium and I don't mark up my own hybrids based on awards to parents. Might help sell a flask or two, but at the same price I sell all the other flasks.

We are a small center and probably a lot of judges suspect plants are mine when they come to their table, but I don't think that influences the scoring. I really hope it doesn't. I often think I know who's plant I'm looking at, just because I know most of the growers in my region and what they are good at. But I'm wrong on a pretty frequent basis. I think that is probably a good thing, keeps everybody guessing.

I've given much consideration (over the last 30 years or so) about what to do with a plant I've sold if it comes to my table. If I actually made the cross I'll always recuse myself. If it is just something I bought in from a wholesaler to resell, I'll usually judge it. It isn't the flower's fault that it spent a few months at my house. If it was a recent sale, I recuse myself. Mostly because I did most of the work getting it to flower the way it has. But something I sold a year or two ago? That is the flower/grower's award, not mine. If anything I'm harder on those plants because I've seen more of that cross bloom and know what it can do.