You be the judge

[DrLeslieEe]

One thing I learned in buying from Krull-Smith is that you have to specifically request unbloomed plants if you're buying blooming size, otherwise you will get their culls. I bought a Catt lueddemanniana over the summer that was advertised as a blooming size seedling but it was a thrice bloomed plant with a poor quality single flower opening in transit. When I talked to them about a replacement they tried to tell me that experienced growers want previously bloomed plants and not unbloomed seedlings

If it was previously select maybe ok … but not culls.

 

[Tony]

I know what you mean … the first award that I ever got was an HCC for a green Phalaenopsis hybrid in 1998 and I was so excited I trembled. And that feeling hadn’t subsided with every award that I get, now 35 in total (13 HCCs, 15 AMs, 1 FCC, 2 JCs, 3 CBRs and 1 CHM).

That said, the HCC is an important award to get in the door despite all those reasons above (prods Deb and Darlene). HCC level plants still have to go through the same screening, nominating, and scoring as FCC plants.

If my comments came across as derogatory to growers receiving HCCs that wasn't my intent, I'm always happy to see other growers succeed.

That being said, some of the commentary here has mentioned the feeling that if a plant gets nominated the judges have to give it SOMETHING, which has in turn created the feeling that an HCC is sort of the default and not a "real" award. The reluctance that at least some judges have to upgrade an HCC reflects this line of thinking, and while I was half joking I do think the HCC seal being a tacky neon green rather than copper/bronze both reinforces and reflects that attitude in a subtle way. AOS judging as a whole has lost a good deal of its prestige on both the international and domestic stage in recent years and there is some real PR work needed to bring back a feeling of seriousness to the HCC.

 

[Tom-DE]

I don't look down any awards if it is a good judging. Sometimes, the judges play favoritism for friends or fellow judges...that I definitely have problems with.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

If my comments came across as derogatory to growers receiving HCCs that wasn't my intent, I'm always happy to see other growers succeed.

That being said, some of the commentary here has mentioned the feeling that if a plant gets nominated the judges have to give it SOMETHING, which has in turn created the feeling that an HCC is sort of the default and not a "real" award. The reluctance that at least some judges have to upgrade an HCC reflects this line of thinking, and while I was half joking I do think the HCC seal being a tacky neon green rather than copper/bronze both reinforces and reflects that attitude in a subtle way. AOS judging as a whole has lost a good deal of its prestige on both the international and domestic stage in recent years and there is some real PR work needed to bring back a feeling of seriousness to the HCC.

There is only one irk I have with the HCC (and not related to the neon green sticker lol). The worse feeling is when one thinks one’s plant is an AM but gets scored a HCC. I’ve been there many times lol. And also true that experienced exhibitors sigh when they get their umpteenth HCC.

As for world stage view of AOS judging, it is still honorable despite the bad press at home. I know… I’ve been travelling and judging all over.

 

[SelectOrchids]

The main problem recently is that starting to estimate a plant by point scoring overall lowers dramatically the quality of the awards...

If you take an ashtray, and start to point score it in the Complex Paphiopedilum section, it is possible to get a high AM or FCC, there is no problem about that, especially because it will be ' full' and ' very round'... If it is a black one, get a full score in the 'color' category as well, and substance will be excellent of course. But it remains... an ashtray.

They progessively suppressed in most judging systems the fatal flaw concept, and start point scoring/compare measurements. At the end, we end up with pot plant being awarded AM or FCC, or to the opposite an HCC given to a plant because there is a cluster of AM/FCC in the database that are indeed 'superior', but gone since 50 years in cultivation. This is a real problem after all.

The first is the subjective experience, and a guess, whether it is award quality or not, and roughly what award. Then point scoring can complete the first assessment. When I look at some of the recent AOS awards, there are plants that are worthless that have been awarded, twisted dorsal, assymetry, lower Lidl grade Phalaenopsis pot plant, etc... Or obvious hybrids awarded as species too.

Edit: for those who have OrchidPro, in the last few weeks'awards, there are some really ugly things that got AMs. not only in Paphiopedilum. Some are very good, but very few, overall... A Rhyncholaelia with fully fenestrated flowers and twisted petals awarded AM as well, but some Hengduan Qin that overall lacks anything to be awarded. Photos can be misleading, but well, if the dorsal of a catt is narrow and recurved, when even flat it could not make a full flower, it won;t change to see it in person, it is a fatal flaw, after all...

 

[big923cattleya]

You are entitled to your opinion. And I am sure that you know what they say about opinions.

 

[SelectOrchids]

You are entitled to your opinion. And I am sure that you know what they say about opinions.

If it was only an opinion... Indeed, what I usually heard is that when opinions are backed up by proven experience and facts, they are no longer opinions...

Any award to a CAttleya whose dorsal rolls up, reflexes, and leaves a big window between the dorsal and the petals is just a joke, that's one of the basic fatal flaws...

If you look at the awards on OrchidsPro of the last few months, there are some absolutely terrible and awful hybrids that got AMs. But real horrors, not just dubious. Point scoring plants will make the things worse as well. For the value of the AOS awards, it is still a monetary value with some of the customers here and there. The reason why a lot of Hawaii FCC etc... awards were rescinded, as the purpose was to sell at top price to Japanese ' FCC/AOS' divisions... one rothschildianum comes to mind actually, it evenytually disappeared from the AOS OrchidsPro after all...

This said, for your Potinara Pure Love, it has a potential for an award... Surely more than some AM cattleya recently awarded. Overall color is very nice, the lip color and pattern is very interesting, and that's something I would definitely buy if it was available...

 

[big923cattleya]

Oh, a misunderstanding it was not my plant. I just posted about it.

 

[My Green Pets]

I like this thread!
I was thrilled to get HCCs on two of my Cattleya rexes, just to get them in the registry books was great.
I do feel like they are just handing out FCCs recently. Look at the past few months. Do any of these look first-class to you?

 

[big923cattleya]

Without being there, seeing the plant in person, looking at past awards to the grex or species, getting measurements, evaluating size and form compared to other awards, evaluating color, depth of color, looking at arrangement I do not see how you can dismiss any of these as not worthy based entirely on an image. Some definitely, most probably not but all of them, I doubt it.

Granted, some clunkers are unjustly awarded an FCC.

Keep in mind it is a system, it is not perfect.

 

[SelectOrchids]

Without being there, seeing the plant in person, looking at past awards to the grex or species, getting measurements, evaluating size and form compared to other awards, evaluating color, depth of color, looking at arrangement I do not see how you can dismiss any of these as not worthy based entirely on an image. Some definitely, most probably not but all of them, I doubt it.

Granted, some clunkers are unjustly awarded an FCC.

Keep in mind it is a system, it is not perfect.

That's the problem, there is no need to be there in person to see that:

- The kovachii has a narrower dorsal, not good shape
- The pulcherrima chumpornensis has a very average shape
- The bulbophyllum hybrid is just very inferior in shape and size to a straight echinolabium, even to make that hybrid has no purpose
- The Cycnoches hybrid cannot compare to a good quality Cychnoches copperi by very far.
- The stanhopea wardii is an average representative of the species. Actually there are species more suited for FCC material, such as some varieties of tigrina etc... even. It is not because a species or hybrid exist, that the best of each species has to be awarded an FCC... and here we are far from the best of a wardii.

etc...

Getting measurements or looking at previous awards won't change that...

Point scoring like an idiot however is a problem. Decompose the things, this has to be from 0 to 5 points, 3? mmmh maybe 4. Ok next... and at the end the sum says ' it is an FCC'. Without looking first at the flower by itself, just measurements, and detail by detail...

FCCs are usually at least kind of OK, not to be FCCs, but they are at least normal flowers. AM or HCC are much much worse, with some truly horrible things with twisted petals and very bad shape.

 

[big923cattleya]

Well as far as I know, we do not have a provision in our judging system that all awards have to be approved by you.
Secondly, when evaluating an award like for Manchind, we compare the candidate to other Manchinds, not to B. echinolabium.
As far as the kovachii goes, I can’t sit here and say the dorsal is too narrow, I would have to compare it to other awarded clones.


But like I said, go on believing that these are poor examples of FCC plants. Doesn’t bother me. You have a right to feel that way. But I have the right to disagree with you.

 

[Ozpaph]

The Dollgoldi is a joke, IMO

 

[big923cattleya]

Oh my gosh! That is a tad ugly ain’t it? A Dollgoldi is capable of so much more then that. Disappointing.

 

[Ozpaph]

and 94 points - cant they see the dorsal/staminode/pouch dont line up. The pouch is small and those wavy petals are the biggest detractor.
It has nice colour and 'lines'

 

[big923cattleya]

No, they apparently can’t see. It is a problem for sure. I wish I had an idea as to exactly how they decided on an FCC or any award for that matter.
We try to get judging criteria to be as standardized and consistent as possible but that is just not possible. The outcome depends so much on personnel and exposure. I have no idea which center this was or the judges involved but there is no governing body within the system that could possibly over rule awards of any type.
But years as go, I believe I have posted this before, but back in ‘95, the Philadelphia Center was known amongst the judges as “Paphadelphia” because that center awarded lots of slippers.
The New York Center was known as “Species Central” because of them recognizing a higher % of species. Here we get back into training and experience again. Whatever team awarded this FCC, did they collectively possess the experience to accurately evaluate the Dollgoldi?? I can not say, with complete certainty, yes or no. But like I said it is the system we have, results are never going to please everyone nor be perfect. That is just not possible.
There will always be those who disagree as a matter of opinion.

We can’t search for perfection when perfection can’t be reasonably reached.
You can’t really demand perfection either.
All I can control really is me. My evaluations, my scores, sharing my knowledge, my experiences, train the new judges as best I can.

 

[Tony]

Maybe the Dollgoldi was a make-up award for the hangianum they screwed up earlier this year.

 

[big923cattleya]

There is no chance of that thank goodness.

 

[Tony]

Here we get back into training and experience again. Whatever team awarded this FCC, did they collectively possess the experience to accurately evaluate the Dollgoldi?? I can not say, with complete certainty, yes or no.

I'm sure the judges don't see many multiflorals in the northwest, the cold dark climate is not suited to growing them well and any blooming multi is going to be impressive from that frame of reference. I could easily see a team of newer judges that haven't traveled much being overly impressed by a plant that would be mundane in a more tropical area.

 

[tnyr5]

... I'm not touching this with a ten-foot pole.