Early K-lite results

[rcb]

It's interesting that your two mounted plants actually hold a higher percentage of the water you put on them than the leca/turface pots.

I noticed that, wondered if anyone else would Im guessing it's the nature of the wood I use for mounting. Most of them are cedar shingles, which are pretty rough surface, allowing for a very uneven surface, allowing for a increase in overall surface area, but just a guess here. plus I would think the wood itself will absorb some water.

Another piece of the puzzle?

If you use expanded clay might need to go SH.

I actually tried S/H a couple summers ago. All but one plant went thru a serious decline. I made the assumption that my rains flushed too much which led the plants always in too good of water which would leach nutrients from the plants. But that was at that time. Since then I have put a few Hoyas in S/H and they seem for the most part ok. So I don't know why the orchids didn't perform well in S/H. Makes no sense. I did wait to convert till they had active new root growth.

 

[Rick]

The trays will counter the water retention. That would counter the nutrient shortage as long as the trays contain the nutrients. What happens to the nutrients in the 1 inch deep tray when it rains one inch? The trays will have the same problem holding nutrients as the pots won't they?

When it rains one inch, then she'll worry about it. It doesn't rain every day, and not one inch every day either. So if it dilutes out a bit it will be fine. Right now that one pot doesn't even hold water for 24 hours with out rain.

So if you multiply the formula 2-3 times, and spit it into the pot and it rains one inch it all ends up on the ground before the plant has a chance to see it anyway.

Main thing is to increase exposure duration. In the one case where the plant is still in CHC, the plant looks good, and the big difference would appear to be relative water retention properties.

In my paper I speculated that the problem with CHC was that it held to much fert with all the water it retained. Renee bailed on CHC before K lite. Most likely speculating it was keeping the roots too wet (rather than too salty). Now that she's on K lite, CHC is OK because it holds more water (that happens to have less salt now).

The plants need the water more than the fert.

I say keep it in the pot longer and she'll do fine.

 

[rcb]

I have come to a conclusion. Thank you all for your input.

My hubby is just going to have to agree to a greenhouse if he want a happy wife

Which btw he is sitting beside looking over my shoulder as I type.

 

[gonewild]

pretty weird.

So just need clarification.

That is why I'm speaking in terms of ppm...

I use meters that I have had forever that measure in milimohs.
Generally nutrient solutions of 1.0 have always produced good results.
When I test solution that measures 1 milimoh with a cheap ppm meter it reads about 500ppm. Math conversions supported this. So I know that applying nutrients at 500ppm will not hurt the plants. What actual ppms plants need is totally dependent on the species and environment.

 

[gonewild]

I have come to a conclusion. Thank you all for your input.

My hubby is just going to have to agree to a greenhouse if he want a happy wife

Which btw he is sitting beside looking over my shoulder as I type.

I bet you get a greenhouse!

 

[rcb]

Actually I bailed on CHC mainly for the same reason I bailed on bark. Palmetto bugs like to hang oCut in pots with organic media.

I would rather burn all my plants then pick up another pot and have a palmetto bug jump out at me. The few pots that still have CHC in them, I make my boys pick up and shake before I will touch them. I'm willing to make sacrifices for my orchids, but not that!

Maybe silly reason for some, but this original northern girl cannot get over the idea of palmetto bugs.

 

[Rick]

I actually tried S/H a couple summers ago. All but one plant went thru a serious decline. I made the assumption that my rains flushed too much which led the plants always in too good of water which would leach nutrients from the plants. But that was at that time.

That was pre low K wasn't it? Knowing what I now know about K toxicity, I'd say you were probably seeing K toxicity.

Ray's orchids (including lots of Catts) are doing great SH. And for the most part even better low K.

Logic is a bit funny that you would attribute holding up water in the pots with nutrient starvation after a rain flush, but now without trays you flush even more efficiently and not get starvation with the old MSU? Without the trays your nutrient exposure duration is always shorter.

 

[rcb]

That was pre low K wasn't it? Knowing what I now know about K toxicity, I'd say you were probably seeing K toxicity.

Ray's orchids (including lots of Catts) are doing great SH. And for the most part even better low K.

Logic is a bit funny that you would attribute holding up water in the pots with nutrient starvation after a rain flush, but now without trays you flush even more efficiently and not get starvation with the old MSU? Without the trays your nutrient exposure duration is always shorter.

Yes it was pre low K. My logic may have not been the best but at the time I couldn't think of any other reason why they weren't ok.

 

[Brabantia]

(250x13)/100 = 32.5 ppm N ?? I don't understand your maths Rick

Maybe I am me badly expressed. KLite is 13% nitrogen, if 250 ppm (250 mgr/L) is the total salt dissolved you have in solution 32.5 ppm of nitrogen and not 100 ppm N.
About the relation between ppm fertilyser and EC.
By computing different mixtures made with Calcium nitrate, Magnesium nitrate, Potassium phosphate monobasic salts (MSU and near KLite fertilyser simulation) I found this relation: at 65 ppm N (0.5 gr fertilyser/1L) EC= 400 to 500 µS.
400 µS when I use Magnesium nitrate and 500 µS with Magnesium sulfate. For the different salt mixtures tested (at 65 ppm N) the ratio: total salt weight / µS is always 1.2.
This is just for your information.

 

[orcoholic]

The meter does measure ms. Had a lot of caffeine this morning. Have always watered around 1 in growing months and .5 in other months.

 

[orcoholic]

It should have said an Ec of 1, not 100.

 

[Rick]

It should have said an Ec of 1, not 100.

That makes sense if its 1milli Siemen

Thats 1000 uS/cm and dividing that by 2 for a sodium chloride convention gives 500 ppm TDS.

 

[Rick]

Maybe I am me badly expressed. KLite is 13% nitrogen, if 250 ppm (250 mgr/L) is the total salt dissolved you have in solution 32.5 ppm of nitrogen and not 100 ppm N.
About the relation between ppm fertilyser and EC.
By computing different mixtures made with Calcium nitrate, Magnesium nitrate, Potassium phosphate monobasic salts (MSU and near KLite fertilyser simulation) I found this relation: at 65 ppm N (0.5 gr fertilyser/1L) EC= 400 to 500 µS.
400 µS when I use Magnesium nitrate and 500 µS with Magnesium sulfate. For the different salt mixtures tested (at 65 ppm N) the ratio: total salt weight / µS is always 1.2.
This is just for your information.

I could be expressing badly myself.

We wanted to start with 100 ppm N. Then compute the total TDS of the whole salt.

At least from old K lite brochure I have 12-1-1-10-3 +trace
So I set N to 100ppm, all the rest is 15% by weight. So by proportion (100/12%)X15% = 125ppm more so total of 225 + fudge for trace.

But now I already see one error since nitrate N is 443 mg for every 100 mg/L-N. So now pushing the TDS closer to 600mg/L.

Looking at the basic chart for Klite mixing rates it says 770mg/L is the TDS for whole salt at 100ppm N So still missing significant accounting though I wouldn't have given the micros that much credit.

 

[Rick]

Or hydroponic?
Nutrients supplied with every irrigation onto an inert media is basically a form of hydroponics. S/H relies on the wicking from a reservoir of nutrient solution that has a controlled known content. Because of the unknown rainfall flushes the nutrients in the trays or reservoir can not be known. It still seems the best solution is to supply more nutrients from the top.

Well she just have to come up with her own consensus from the info we've all supplied and try something out:wink:

 

[Rick]

So I know that applying nutrients at 500ppm will not hurt the plants. What actual ppms plants need is totally dependent on the species and environment.

Well now it turns out that 200ppm N is actually closer to 1600ppm (not 500ppm).

Is that still an amount you are comfortable adding to orchids? That's a pretty foreign environment. I didn't find anything close to that in the jungle data.

 

[tomkalina]

1600 ppm sounds about right, Rick, since my 50 ppm N K-Lite equivalent (1/3 tsp/gal) dissolved in 20% Chgo+ 80% R/O water is running about 430 ppm TDS. Now I'm going to try the same 1/3 tsp/gal K-Lite dose in straight R/O to see what I come up with for TDS.......I'd like to irrigate with a nominal 200 ppm max TDS if possible.

 

[gonewild]

Well now it turns out that 200ppm N is actually closer to 1600ppm (not 500ppm).

Is that still an amount you are comfortable adding to orchids? That's a pretty foreign environment. I didn't find anything close to that in the jungle data.

No, not on a constant feed.
As I said 500 ppm total is a good level. 600 is in that zone but 1600 is not.
I just read these last posts, how did the ppms jump so high?

 

[gonewild]

1600 ppm sounds about right, Rick, since my 50 ppm N K-Lite equivalent (1/3 tsp/gal) dissolved in 20% Chgo+ 80% R/O water is running about 430 ppm TDS.

What is the tds of your water mix before adding fertilizer?

Now I'm going to try the same 1/3 tsp/gal K-Lite dose in straight R/O to see what I come up with for TDS.......I'd like to irrigate with a nominal 200 ppm max TDS if possible.

This is a number we need to know!

Using math is fine but best to actually read the meter.

The K-lite chart says 1/3 tsp will give 50ppm N.
We need to know the total ppms of salt K-lite adds to water.

 

[Rick]

The K-lite chart says 1/3 tsp will give 50ppm N.
We need to know the total ppms of salt K-lite adds to water.

1.45 grams per gallon is closer to a 1/4 tsp than a 1/3.

But the grams per liter table is the one to look at

50 ppm N is 0.38g/L or 380 mg/L(PPM). Conductivity should come out to between 600-700 uS/cm (on top of the base water).

 

[gonewild]

Renee...

Can you please tell us...
the amount of K-lite you use to make your concentrate.
How much water is in the concentrate mixture.
How much of this concentrate you put in your 20l sprayer.

Do you have tds meter or does a friend? (You can get one at ACE Hwd for about $20)
Measure the tds of your fresh water.
Measure the tds (ppm) of your concentrate
measure the tds of the solution you are applying with the sprayer.

Measuring the water that is inside your growing media would be very good.
This is not so hard to do, all you need is to collect a spoonful.
Get a clean dry tray that will hold water.
Before you water your plants collect samples.
Sit a plant in the dry tray and tilt the pot so it is at an angle with the drain hole down and some small amount of water should drain out the drain hole. This water is your sample. Keep doing this until you have collected enough water to test with the tds meter.

If the above does not yield any water try doing the process the day after the plants are watered. Or if you happen to be home when it starts to rain try to collect some of the first water to drain out of the pots.

The result of this test will tell us the concentration of salts in the water in your pots. Ideally this water will represent the amount of nutrients that your plants are getting.