Early K-lite results

[rcb]

"The pot weighed 426 to start so it is drying but not dry yet.
I assume the pot at 426 still had some moisture in the media before you watered it?"

The pot was bone dry, it had been cool here over the last week, so I hadn't watered. (We are in a dry spell - which is ending tomorrow - serious rains for tomorrow) If I hadn't fertilized again this morning, I'm pretty sure by tomorrow morning it would have been back down to that weight.

Thanks for the logging off tip!

 

[rcb]

But short days do! Winter is also about day length.

Yes, but again this is the 4th winter they have spent under those conditions, and this past winter overall was actually a bit warmer than average. Although we are cooler than average right now. I do seriously spend too much time tracking the weather here, but as I grow outside, I do track it lol

And again the seasonal change was no difference under MSU.

I don't mean to be argumentative, I'm just putting up all possibilities I hope, and trying to make sure everything is considered. An impossible job I know .

 

[gonewild]

The pictures help a lot.

Where are pictures showing the excess leafless bulbs?
I also don't see a "lot" of yellow leaves?

The pictures do not convince me that you actually have a specific nutrient problem. Actually they support the opposite you show a lot of improved growth from before!

Consider this... If you double the growth rate of new leaves why would that not allow the plant to abort double the amount of old leaves?

This is basically your first complete winter cycle under the influence of K-lite and actually all I can see is a general low nutrient level. This may even be caused by the low winter temperatures and nut low nutrients. Increasing the overall strength of the fertilizer will probably show quick results....But warming temperatures will also.

Actually I think your plants look great considering they are outside.

Now did you post pictures of the worst or best plants? oke:

 

[gonewild]

If it is a deficiency, why would the new growths be so much bigger than the old? Wouldn't they be stunted?

The idea is that Phosphorous is low and the plant is taking stored Phosphorous from the old leaves and thus dropping the old leaves. This assumption is that the loss of old leaves that show signs of P deficiency is an indication that the fertilizer is low in P.

But your observation is good. If the P is so low the plants need to rob from the old foliage the new growth should not be so vigorous.

So here is the issue... is the lowering levels of Phosphorous in old leaves due to poor nutrient supplies or is it simply how the plant aborts an old no longer need leaf?

When your dog sheds hair it is not from starvation it is from regeneration....same is true with plant leaves.

 

[gonewild]

Yes, but again this is the 4th winter they have spent under those conditions, and this past winter overall was actually a bit warmer than average. Although we are cooler than average right now. I do seriously spend too much time tracking the weather here, but as I grow outside, I do track it lol

And again the seasonal change was no difference under MSU.

I don't mean to be argumentative, I'm just putting up all possibilities I hope, and trying to make sure everything is considered. An impossible job I know .

You are not argumentative you are giving great info!

And again the seasonal change was no difference under MSU.

Maybe because the plants were growing slower and "harder" under MSU and needed all their old leaves to support the new leaves. Now with the new nutrient supply they no longer need to support the old used up leaves.
If the old leaves had struggling nutrient content it is better for the plant to replace them with new reproductive leaves than it is to send more nutrients to the old ones.

If a tree grows twice as many leaves this season as last season you can't expect to rake only the same amount of leaves this year as last.

More new leaves and flowers means more old leaves.

Now if you want to try to keep as many old leaves as possible you will need to increase the available nutrient supply so the plant forgets to shed the old leaves.
"I don't mean to be argumentative, I'm just putting up all possibilities I hope, and trying to make sure everything is considered." :wink:

 

[rcb]

The pictures help a lot.

Where are pictures showing the excess leafless bulbs?
I also don't see a "lot" of yellow leaves?

The pictures do not convince me that you actually have a specific nutrient problem. Actually they support the opposite you show a lot of improved growth from before!

Consider this... If you double the growth rate of new leaves why would that not allow the plant to abort double the amount of old leaves?

This is basically your first complete winter cycle under the influence of K-lite and actually all I can see is a general low nutrient level. This may even be caused by the low winter temperatures and nut low nutrients. Increasing the overall strength of the fertilizer will probably show quick results....But warming temperatures will also.

Actually I think your plants look great considering they are outside.

Now did you post pictures of the worst or best plants? oke:

Isn't it enough that I've already publicly admitted all that I do wrong with my babies? I don't think I'm this honest with my Dr.

ok, here is a bad one. Total of 9 p'bulbs, the bare ones dropped recently, and 3 more of those p'bulbs are in the process of dropping their leaves. In a month it will have only 3 of 9 p'bulbs with leaves. The leaf all the way to the right is actually starting to turn the red/yellow as well, it didn't come through in the picture. BTW, good great blooms off it it when it was in bloom. I'll attach that pic as well. In the bloom pic, you can see one of the leaves turning.

 

[gonewild]

Isn't it enough that I've already publicly admitted all that I do wrong with my babies? I don't think I'm this honest with my Dr.

View attachment 7761

Apply double dose fertilizer and see your doctor next month.

 

[rcb]

oh and cause I have to show I'm not a completely crappy grower, I'm no expert, but I'm not that bad.

Here is a quick snapshot of my D. nobile hv. cooksoniana and D. gracilicaule. First bloom on the nobile, flowers not compeltely open yet.

 

[dodidoki]

A read some article about macroelements.
My idea is next:
Rick's idea with K-lite works but brobably not only because of low K but because of higher Ca and Mg.

As Rick wrote too in his article, K, Mg and Ca is anatonisctic ions in relation of uptake. Most of regular fertilizer contains very low concetntration of Ca and Mg but contains high conc. of potassium.
This lead to not toxicity of K but to deficiency of Ca and Mg.
Typical sign of Ca deficiency that roots stopped in growing, tips turn brown and slimy and die, leaves stay small and are not able to open, stay closed.In time plant will show of deficiencies of all nutritients because of root insufficiency. This symptoms disappear with K-lite because of high Ca cc.If K-lite results shows long term deficiency symptoms that is maybe because of low P. Signs are followings: older leaves turn to red, later yellow and fall down.
I think Rick's formulas is good way, maybe will be better with higher P (N/P 13/6-7 istead of 13/3)

Another interesting macronutritient what Rick pointed to is sulphur. Sulphur is a very important component of many albumins but there is not much, if any in fertilizers. One of the reason is Rick's success using Epsom salt for providing Mg.

 

[gonewild]

oh and cause I have to show I'm not a completely crappy grower, I'm no expert, but I'm not that bad.

Ummm... You have not shown anything crappy yet.
I think you are a worry-wart..... :rollhappy:

 

[Rick]

Apply double dose fertilizer and see your doctor next month.

By math the fastest easiest way to double the amount of available nutrient is just to put a tray under the pot and keep the fluid retention in the pot higher.

Right now Renee, you are only retaining 50% of the water your pour through the pot and it hardly stays in for more than a couple days. No accounting how much the roots actually have access to and suck up into the plant. If your standard watering practice left 70 ml of water in the pot which provides X amount of nutrient then by retaining 140 ml (with a tray) you double the amount without wasting it on the ground, or increasing the concentration rate.

Deeper/broader tray you can keep even more. 280ml is 4X the total amount available. 420 ml is 6X the total amount of nutrient you are presently feeding, and at that point is also the same total amount of P you would be feeding with a standard MSU P equivalent of 70 mls of pot water at 50ppm of P. For scale perspective, 1 measuring cup of water is 225 ml, so 420 is not even 2 cups of water. In a 5 inch pot that might be an inch deep.

Plants are 90% water anyway. Unlike most other nutrients plants intake and exhale (consume) water at much higher rates than just what they retain for growth. Plants generally don't significantly pee/poop/exhale PKCaMgand micros. But they will consume a bunch of water to get the other stuff.

 

[Rick]

http://www.ladyslipper.com/coco3.htm

Check out the chart at the bottom of the page.

The picture of Renee's excellent plant in CHC compared to the Leca products goes back to just total water retention attributes of the different materials.

In the Antec table they have Aliflor (a brand of leca) and sponge rock to compare to for inerts. But its pretty obvious how much more water is held up over longer periods of time for the organic.

Use of trays will counter the low water retention attributes of your potting mix.

 

[Rick]

ok, got pics, but I still have to upload them.

But I got some more numbers this morning.

Initial weight after 1st after 2nd pot size and media
833 886 895 5 inch, LECA
1181 1260 895 6 inch, LECA
283 344 351 4 inch, Turface
508 569 609 4 inch. Turface
807 844 871 5 inch LECA
255 297 306 mounted
971 1023 1032 8 inch, LECA
82 106 114 mounted

It's interesting that your two mounted plants actually hold a higher percentage of the water you put on them than the leca/turface pots.

 

[Rick]

she grows her Hoyas in S/H and has reported great results.

Another piece of the puzzle?

If you use expanded clay might need to go SH.

 

[Rick]

(250x13)/100 = 32.5 ppm N ?? I don't understand your maths Rick

Not computing equivalent N mass Brabantia. Total, all salts mass.

 

[Rick]

Ec of 100 translates to 400ppm - 454ppm, depending on what meter you're using.

Many thanks to whoever wrote it. (Rick?)

Yes what units is that meter?

uS/cm is about 2Xppm so EC 2000 us/cm = 1000ppm of TDS (sodium chloride).

Maybe your meter is in milli seimens/cm.

In that case you are dosing a lot heavier than most of us.

Thanks, I wrote the article.

Started with a daydream almost two years ago. Look up a thread titled "Ever Wonder".

 

[dodidoki]

Yes what units is that meter?

uS/cm is about 2Xppm so EC 2000 us/cm = 1000ppm of TDS (sodium chloride).

Maybe your meter is in milli seimens/cm.

In that case you are dosing a lot heavier than most of us.

Thanks, I wrote the article.

Started with a daydream almost two years ago. Look up a thread titled "Ever Wonder".

There is a so called Beta-factor to convert Ec to TDS. You shoud know what salts you solved in water. Eg. if you solve NaCL, beta=2. If you solve eg. Na2So4, Beta =3. If I mean well....

 

[Rick]

There is a so called Beta-factor to convert Ec to TDS. You shoud know what salts you solved in water. Eg. if you solve NaCL, beta=2. If you solve eg. Na2So4, Beta =3. If I mean well....

pretty weird.

I measure EC on mixtures of salts all the time. Yes the type of salt "bends' the TDS relationship curve, but by about +/- 30%.

So EC (in uS/cm) can bounce around maybe 2.6X to 1.4X TDS (in mg/L/ppm) depending on the relative contribution of the different salts.

But in Orcaholic's case his units show TDS 5X higher than EC (completely backwards for the units I use).

So just need clarification.

 

[gonewild]

Use of trays will counter the low water retention attributes of your potting mix.

The trays will counter the water retention. That would counter the nutrient shortage as long as the trays contain the nutrients. What happens to the nutrients in the 1 inch deep tray when it rains one inch? The trays will have the same problem holding nutrients as the pots won't they?

 

[gonewild]

Another piece of the puzzle?

If you use expanded clay might need to go SH.

Or hydroponic?
Nutrients supplied with every irrigation onto an inert media is basically a form of hydroponics. S/H relies on the wicking from a reservoir of nutrient solution that has a controlled known content. Because of the unknown rainfall flushes the nutrients in the trays or reservoir can not be known. It still seems the best solution is to supply more nutrients from the top.