You be the judge

[DrLeslieEe]

It's just my personal preference, if I think I have an HCC quality flower I'm happy to hold it back until it's ready for the higher award. I've been told by several judges that it is a wiser strategy as well to have a higher floor for when seeking an upgrade, they're going to be more willing to bump a midrange AM to FCC than they would to bump an HCC past a low AM.

There is no guarantee an ‘un-judged’ HCC flower can be AM on next better flower showing lol. It depends on team. In fact sometimes it’s even passed on that first AM attempt. Or worst nightmare to end up with the HCC regardless .

 

[Tony]

There is no guarantee an ‘un-judged’ HCC flower can be AM on next better flower showing lol. It depends on team. In fact sometimes it’s even passed on that first AM attempt.

Of course there is no guarantee but my eyeballs are pretty well calibrated to what the judges at my center want to see, every plant I've submitted has come back with an AM or FCC save for two which were both scuttled by the same judge when the rest of the team was in AM range.

 

[big923cattleya]

When I entered the program in ‘95, size was the number one thing. After size assuming the candidate passed muster, the form, flatness, markings, color etc. were discussed.
Please keep it in mind that software like Orchid Wiz and Orchid Pro were still in the infancy or planning stage. Slides were just about all we had to go on. So many of our most recent awards were 6-9 months old. Today we often see recent awards that are a month or so old. Often times a few images of the plant are available. The Judging Committee slowly got us away from size being the number one thing discussed.
When I am team captain, or anyone else is for that matter, we do measure NS right off the bat.
Our students are the first to comment about the candidate. Most choose color to start their comments. I try to steer them towards form and arrangement as soon as possible. Size is often brought in at some point then. Orchid Plus is of great help at this time.
After we have the students opinion we get everyone else’s opinion. Plus so many students start off being timid, shy etc. and color provides them with instant comfort as opposed to starting out with form.
I always bring in anything that I think is awardable from my blooming plants. That is probably because I tend to over estimate my flowers awardability. HCC, AM, whatever, I treasure every award. I have had a few HCC’s die before going back for an upgrade.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Of course there is no guarantee but my eyeballs are pretty well calibrated to what the judges at my center want to see, every plant I've submitted has come back with an AM or FCC save for two which were both scuttled by the same judge when the rest of the team was in AM range.

You do have fantastic plant/flowers and deserve those awards. Kudos to good growing (and eyes).

 

[big923cattleya]

But in all honesty, the AOS Judging System is in trouble.
Some centers are critically low on judges. So low in fact that a Judging Task Force is exploring ways to supplement center personnel with on line judges checking in to help round out judging teams. When an AOS center covers a very wide geographical area that is sparsely populated, it can be very hard to recruit judges.
In the case of our center, we too are getting low on judges. Age is one issue. But we have been a little more fortunate lately in that we have recruited a few new students. Hopefully we can advance them through the program and we will be better off as a center. We fair a little bit better in terms of attendance at monthly judgings but some of our shows may have trouble getting judges to travel to a show. I for one, have been taking rooms over night more then I ever have. This adds a little expense to the whole project but it makes the trip easier on me. I never imagined way back when what it would be like to hit 50 years of age!!!! 60? 70? now I am staring at 75!!! Holy mashed potatoes Batman!!!
But I have been blessed with good health and I will continue to judge. But I have to say, I see the end of my judging career is rapidly approaching. I see the end in the distance more so then ever before.

So please, if some of you who might be on the fence about becoming a judge, I beg you to reconsider. We need you, your center needs you.

 

[Tony]

Every time I go to judging they push me to join up, right now I have too many conflicts with my work schedule but I'm hoping next year when one of the guys retires I can get his schedule and start training as a student.

 

[big923cattleya]

Well, we always need good people!

 

[PeteM]

But in all honesty, the AOS Judging System is in trouble.
Some centers are critically low on judges. So low in fact that a Judging Task Force is exploring ways to supplement center personnel with on line judges checking in to help round out judging teams. When an AOS center covers a very wide geographical area that is sparsely populated, it can be very hard to recruit judges.
In the case of our center, we too are getting low on judges. Age is one issue. But we have been a little more fortunate lately in that we have recruited a few new students. Hopefully we can advance them through the program and we will be better off as a center. We fair a little bit better in terms of attendance at monthly judgings but some of our shows may have trouble getting judges to travel to a show. I for one, have been taking rooms over night more then I ever have. This adds a little expense to the whole project but it makes the trip easier on me. I never imagined way back when what it would be like to hit 50 years of age!!!! 60? 70? now I am staring at 75!!! Holy mashed potatoes Batman!!!
But I have been blessed with good health and I will continue to judge. But I have to say, I see the end of my judging career is rapidly approaching. I see the end in the distance more so then ever before.

So please, if some of you who might be on the fence about becoming a judge, I beg you to reconsider. We need you, your center needs you.

I believe the hardest part is the time constraints of the modern family. Running around with a kid and all the activities needed to manage, it’s difficult to steal an entire Saturday away from the family when you have so little family time during the week. Additionally, judging shows mid week runs up against work commitments. It’s probably going to be 10 more years until I have the free time to enter any program like this. But I’m happy to put in the time to learn what I can from home.

I’ve also noticed the aging of our local judges, not one judge manages to attend our monthly society meetings anymore. Many older members are not comfortable driving at night. I believe this is causing an information gap where the new members are not getting fed the wealth of information. This is most notable during our show table, where ribbons are handed out based on an overall lower understanding and experience. Trying to encourage members to enter the judging program is a solution but trying to streamline the program a bit for students would be helpful.

One example of a reworked program is PADI, one of the mainstream diving instruction/ certification programs in the US. Years ago you had to attend weekly in person classes in the evenings and a few days of instruction in the pool. The program was overhauled and a book with media / video instruction was produced to allow people to learn the material at home on their own time.

For now, I believe the biggest positive impact I can have is to try and attend as many society meetings as possible and to bring with me as many blooming orchids that will fit in my car. Hoping that I can continue to help grow the membership through engagement and letting the flowers inspire the next generation until one of these new members goes all in and starts the judging program.

Judging question: you mentioned this a few times. When judging a flower you mention comparing the flower to the most recent awarded plants. What’s this significance? of comparing a flower to a more recent award vs one logged 25 years ago?

 

[big923cattleya]

We look at most recent awards when comparing the plant before us because the Standards of Judging should always be going forward, improving. When looking at a St. Swithin for example with a couple of hundred awards, why go back initially to awards from 15, 20 or 25 years ago? We look at the most recent awards. Typically within the last few months to 3-5 years ago. Keeping in mind Judging Standards going forward, we want to compare the candidate to recent awards.
If we find it to be better then recent AM St. Swithins, we might go back and compare it to the most recent FCC.
That is why.

 

[tomp]

Regarding the question of HCC being a “poor” award:
For judges and expert growers an HCC could be disappointing however to a novice or hobby society grower their first or any award can be thrilling. I have seen, several times, that the first award can often motivate folks to start looking past the “pretty flowers” and move on to appreciating quality and improving their collection.

 

[Arne]

Regarding the question of HCC being a “poor” award:
For judges and expert growers an HCC could be disappointing however to a novice or hobby society grower their first or any award can be thrilling. I have seen, several times, that the first award can often motivate folks to start looking past the “pretty flowers” and move on to appreciating quality and improving their collection.

Also, consider the very famous cultivar of Paph druryi ‘The King’, which “only” received an HCC. And Rhyncholaelia digbyana ‘Mrs Chase’ only received a low AM of 81 points.

 

[big923cattleya]

Well to me, every single award I have been granted has been precious! I only have 7 including a CHM. I have only 3 AM’s and 3 HCC’s. I have not been as lucky as some in terms of locating quality plants.
Yet I do not feel any less by not having FCC’s! An award is an award.

But let me remind you that the British system of judging does not have the HCC. The AOS system does. Does that make one system better then the other? No, of course not!
And I’ll add further that one time at a Judging Center Business Meeting, we were reminded by the “JC”, the AOS Judging Committee that oversees the program, to not forget about the HCC award.
That was such a good point that the JC was making. Reminding us to be a little more humble, a little less ‘snooty’, and remember to use the HCC!!! I guess we needed to ‘humble up’ a bit!

 

[Paph Paradise]

There is nothing wrong with an HCC. The plant is still being recognized as 'above average'. It seems like some judges wont nominate something if they only see 75 points. If it's close I always say let's score it to be sure. Of course once something is nominated it seems it almost always gets an award. However, I don't mind if we score something out with a 74. At least you can tell the exhibitor the plant was given a fair shake.
It also seems like some judges are afraid to step up and say 'score it'. I can't tell you how many times I have been a team captain and had someone 'pass' on scoring a plant but then hand me a scorecard with 80 points when someone else nominates it. Really? You didn't want to score it but you think it's and AM? I can see coming up with a low HCC once you get your pencil out, but how did you not want to nominate an AM?

Dave

 

[big923cattleya]

Really Dave, reluctance to nominate and then scores it an AM? Gee, I don’t know if I ever saw that before. I wonder the thought process that went on in that head!

I know that my mentor as a student was Dr. Berliner, the one who the annual Lycaste Award is named for. He believed that any plant nominated would get an award once scored. He thought it was inevitable. Perhaps with a scoresheet in front of them, pencil in hand, their reservations just melt away?!
Or could it be their inhibitions melted away! Then they decided to run downtown naked.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Well to me, every single award I have been granted has been precious! I only have 7 including a CHM. I have only 3 AM’s and 3 HCC’s. I have not been as lucky as some in terms of locating quality plants.
Yet I do not feel any less by not having FCC’s! An award is an award.

But let me remind you that the British system of judging does not have the HCC. The AOS system does. Does that make one system better then the other? No, of course not!
And I’ll add further that one time at a Judging Center Business Meeting, we were reminded by the “JC”, the AOS Judging Committee that oversees the program, to not forget about the HCC award.
That was such a good point that the JC was making. Reminding us to be a little more humble, a little less ‘snooty’, and remember to use the HCC!!! I guess we needed to ‘humble up’ a bit!

I know what you mean … the first award that I ever got was an HCC for a green Phalaenopsis hybrid in 1998 and I was so excited I trembled. And that feeling hadn’t subsided with every award that I get, now 35 in total (13 HCCs, 15 AMs, 1 FCC, 2 JCs, 3 CBRs and 1 CHM).

Of course the feeling of the FCC was the greatest of all (prods Tony). It was a hard earned culmination of the heavy priced learning growth curve of a very difficult species that already had a gargantuan number of awards. So the standard was set so high already overall in an extremely tough judging center (think 4 FCC’s in 30 years!!! That’s the same number in California and Florida in a year or two?!)

And don’t forget, hobbyists can’t compete with the professional culture of large nurseries with all their techs, who can grow them to perfection. And they set the standards for the flower awards with their perfect culture and perfect blooms. It’s the war of amateurs versus professionals. And rarely do hobbyists get access to these high quality plants (unless cash is not an issue) despite having perfect culture. We usually win awards with ‘lottery plants’, that we lucked out with good blooms and vigor,

That said, the HCC is an important award to get in the door despite all those reasons above (prods Deb and Darlene). HCC level plants still have to go through the same screening, nominating, and scoring as FCC plants.

Not every flower can qualify for HCC either. If that was the case, I would have hundreds of awards.

 

[big923cattleya]

I see it a little differently, a good grower is a good grower, hobbyist or commercial. The difference in my mind is the space available to grow their plants and subsequently earn the awards. Take Krull/Smith as an example. They have lots of space being as large as they are. They have the luxury of purchasing, growing and evaluating dozens or hundreds of certain plants. Let's say they ordered 200 Paph. Saint Swithin plants from a wholesale grower. Within a year or so, 75% of them bloom. They can earmark and set aside some really vigorously growing seedlings if they want to or they get to see all of those seedlings bloom. Relying on their experience, they can quickly weed out the potential award winners likely "stacking the deck" for future awards. That is a huge advantage!! With my limited, compared to Krull/Smith, space, I am lucky to maybe buy 10, maybe 2 dozen seedlings of a particular cross. If I can get an award or two, fantastic! However out of their Saint Swithin's, they might get 6, 8 or a dozen or more winners. I. as a hobby grower can not possibly compete with that.

In the meantime, they can sell of many of the 200 as near blooming size plants. Yes, they may sell off some awards here and there but lets face it, the odds are strongly in their favor.
Not to mention of course their budget is a lot bigger then mine and they have a staff.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

I see it a little differently, a good grower is a good grower, hobbyist or commercial. The difference in my mind is the space available to grow their plants and subsequently earn the awards. Take Krull/Smith as an example. They have lots of space being as large as they are. They have the luxury of purchasing, growing and evaluating dozens or hundreds of certain plants. Let's say they ordered 200 Paph. Saint Swithin plants from a wholesale grower. Within a year or so, 75% of them bloom. They can earmark and set aside some really vigorously growing seedlings if they want to or they get to see all of those seedlings bloom. Relying on their experience, they can quickly weed out the potential award winners likely "stacking the deck" for future awards. That is a huge advantage!! With my limited, compared to Krull/Smith, space, I am lucky to maybe buy 10, maybe 2 dozen seedlings of a particular cross. If I can get an award or two, fantastic! However out of their Saint Swithin's, they might get 6, 8 or a dozen or more winners. I. as a hobby grower can not possibly compete with that.

In the meantime, they can sell of many of the 200 as near blooming size plants. Yes, they may sell off some awards here and there but lets face it, the odds are strongly in their favor.
Not to mention of course their budget is a lot bigger then mine and they have a staff.

That’s exactly what I meant for culture (space and experience) and lottery plants (limited number of chances) lol.

And note my part on ‘despite (hobbyist) perfect’ culture.

 

[big923cattleya]

Such a crap shoot!!!

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Such a crap shoot!!!

Right?? The odds are piled up against us.

 

[Tony]

I see it a little differently, a good grower is a good grower, hobbyist or commercial. The difference in my mind is the space available to grow their plants and subsequently earn the awards. Take Krull/Smith as an example. They have lots of space being as large as they are. They have the luxury of purchasing, growing and evaluating dozens or hundreds of certain plants. Let's say they ordered 200 Paph. Saint Swithin plants from a wholesale grower. Within a year or so, 75% of them bloom. They can earmark and set aside some really vigorously growing seedlings if they want to or they get to see all of those seedlings bloom. Relying on their experience, they can quickly weed out the potential award winners likely "stacking the deck" for future awards. That is a huge advantage!! With my limited, compared to Krull/Smith, space, I am lucky to maybe buy 10, maybe 2 dozen seedlings of a particular cross. If I can get an award or two, fantastic! However out of their Saint Swithin's, they might get 6, 8 or a dozen or more winners. I. as a hobby grower can not possibly compete with that.

In the meantime, they can sell of many of the 200 as near blooming size plants. Yes, they may sell off some awards here and there but lets face it, the odds are strongly in their favor.
Not to mention of course their budget is a lot bigger then mine and they have a staff.

One thing I learned in buying from Krull-Smith is that you have to specifically request unbloomed plants if you're buying blooming size, otherwise you will get their culls. I bought a Catt lueddemanniana over the summer that was advertised as a blooming size seedling but it was a thrice bloomed plant with a poor quality single flower opening in transit. When I talked to them about a replacement they tried to tell me that experienced growers want previously bloomed plants and not unbloomed seedlings